in a run and gun system like phoenix's, it's a good system. it keeps fresh legs on the floor. you can have your starters go all out for 8mins, and then rest them. by that time, the opposing team would get tired, and you bring in fresh legs and you can keep on running. but this of course would depend on the talent level of your backup 5 players. but there are only a few coaches out there who trusts players outside of the starting five (and probably 2 backup players). but i think it's important as well because it gives your backup players a lot of confidence in themselves. for it to succeed, you need the perfect combination between your starting ang backup teams, and i think the rockets have the perfect complement of players. for example, lowry would be better of as a starting PG, as you have offense coming from your other starters. brooks would be the offense that picks up the slack for your 2nd team. my units would look like this: starters: lowry martin battier pp yao 2nd team: brooks bud ariza scola hill offense for the starters would come from yao and martin of course. the defensive anchors would be yao and battier. for the 2nd unit, offense would come from brooks, scola and bud. defense would be anchored on hill and ariza. between the starting unit and the 2nd unit, i barely see any drop in offense.
I see. Its good to have a deep roster. Just hope Rick can have the right lineups at the right time, something I think he is average at. But I trust his decision though there's times he puts in weird lineups, resulting in getting hammered by the opponent at that particular time. Thanks for your opinion. Everyone should have their own opinions and that's what make this forum works. You could be right, Adelman should be a better fit though I think Gentry wouldn't do as bad. Wow the picture is epic. Just put [ spoiler ]picture[ /spoiler ] without the spacing I think. Looks like the Dragon is flying. But we Kyle Lowry the BULLDOG to run the show. He looks like one as he is always charging head down to draw fouls. Nice lineup. I like the offense and defense of both unit. Though I don't mind Battier starting, Ariza may complaint as he seems to want to start. Scola should be starting too but that's just my opinion. It's your lineup anyway.
As a slight aside, one thing I noticed that guys like Phil Jackson and especially Greg Popavich do is they tweak things quite a bit during games but if there is something they are getting killed with, they don't always immediately address it until a crucial moment in the game. For instance I remember watching the Spurs once when they were getting really torn apart in a particular matchup. I can't remember who it was now, but someone was getting quality looks every time down. The Spurs were losing, but it was still a 6-8 pt game. Pop let this guy abuse them in the 3rd and at the start of the 4th and never really changes his gameplan but midway through the 4th the Spurs start doubling him as soon as he goes to his right, trapping the ballhandler on screens and just giving an entirely different look. All of a sudden, there is 3-4 minutes left in the game, the Spurs have tied it and their opposition is having a hard time getting their scorer in a comfortable spot and his teammates are having a hard time knocking down shots. Game over and the Spurs win. What they needed to do was so obvious from back in the 2nd quarter but Pop knew if he could keep himself close, he could just tighten the clamps down right when it mattered and the opposition wouldn't have time to reestablish a groove. Now I'm not saying Adelman necessarily does that but I'm saying good coaches, don't always make the right adjustments or substitutions when you think they should because they have a better idea for what is needed within the flow of a game.
The suns had a very athletic secondary unit basically designed to take advantage of tiring starters, and they did it really well, plus Gentry always sat Nash at the start of the final quarter regardless of the score, something that Jackson should have done with Kobe (it was amazing really, every 4th quarter where Kobe got a rest he played well, every 4th quarter where Jackson tried to play him through he became a liability in the 4th, these 2 events happened about 15 games in a row)
The so called Gentry Method worked a little for Phoenix because... 1. They had a great bench that could continue to run the opposing team to death when they came in. They call them the fantastic five. Substituting an all reserve second uni works better in that system because you actually have a second unit that is almost equal to your first unit. Not maany teams can do that. 2. Gentry went back to D'Antoni's offense which basically meant run and run and run. Substituting an all reserve second unit works better in that system because you keep everyone fresh. Wheatley High school used a run and gun system that always kept the team fresh and running. No need oto coach accept to teach the guys to run and when he noticed they were tired he replaced with someone. All he asked his players was to never stop running. A very simple strategy that takes less coaching. 3. In the regular season you don't have much time to prepare for the next game. SO it's easier for Gentry to get away with that coaching strategy. Why that system is really not effective. It's a high school level coaching that requires you have a pretty damn good second unit that is almost equal to your first. The league is an all star league. Teams with the best players usually win. The Lakers kept kobe and Gasol in the game 40+ minutes on average because were simply the best players on the team and opposing teams just couldn't match up with them. They had to have some rest to be effective in the 4th. So Phil Jackson would rest them the time they needed and and that is what he allowed for. No team to my knowledge has ever won a championship with 10 players playing big minutes. Gentry dumped his all reserve method in the playoffs because it was not effective. When the Lakers were accounting for every substitution the Suns were making and the suns would stick in an all reserve team together not accounting for the lakers substitution pattern. Stupid idea that gave the Lakers a strong edge over phoenix. In the end the best players win and they have to play most of the minutes and unless you have the top 10 best players in the league on you squad playing ten guys on your team as 2 units is a stupid way to coach and you'll never win a championship that way. In the playoffs teams have time to coach more and the simple all reserve substitutions get destroyed in the playoffs and that's why Gentry scrapped that method in the playoffs.
I disagree with the initial arguments in favor of the 'Gentry method'. I don't see this as a positive for chemistry. Yes, players what to have some consistency in their minutes, but you don't have to bring in 5 players at a time to do that. Adleman is pretty consistent with his rotation, bringing in players at general the same time every game. Of course this changes when new players come in or for obvious matchup reasons. No doubt, the players are probably told how Adleman hopes to use them before each game. As far as getting used to playing with the same players, there are only 8-10 players in a rotation....not too hard for a professional to get use to playing with. As a player, I'd hate this. I don't want my minutes locked in with everyone else on my unit. If my play improves, I want my minutes to change. As well, I want to play different roles depending on who's on the floor with me. If I'm AB, I want to play with Yao sometimes so I've got the luxary of being able to dump the ball into him and take chances on defense, knowing he's back there defending the rim. On the other hand, I don't want to have to defer to Yao all the time, and want to be able to run the fast break with a 5 who can get up the floor.
Here's my take on the situation: Sure, it's a good idea from a theoretical standpoint... Better chemistry in the bench unit and better chemistry in the starting unit. However, at the same time it could potentially cause a drift between the starting players and the bench players. You've essentially got 2 cliques on the team, and that is not going to fly. Come playoff time, I think team-wide chemistry is a lot more important than having a grouped 10-man rotation.
As others mentioned, it's rare for a team to have 5 reserves that can together play on the same level as the starters. You'd need it to be a system-centric group, not a star-oriented offense. Basically, a college style system instead of typical NBA one. Teams occasionally go this way - the all hustle squads like the few Grizzlies teams that made the playoffs. Problem is, this route has never produced results in the postseason. Defenses clamp down and snuff out these squads, Phoenix last year went further than any I can think of. Generally, going top-heavy with talent is a better bet: land a franchise player than can carry a squad and surround him with a second option and 5-6 other supporting players that can knock down open jumpers and clamp down on D.
I call it the Dallas South Oak Cliff method. It was a big deal at State a few years ago and some coach thought it would be cool if he ran in his second 5 at the same time to counter the strategy. But he got killed, out ath-a-leted. Though I have seen tiny 2A Ponder High School do it in the State tournament also .
I think Adelman is a better coach than Gentry. If we are healthy, Rockets would be a very good team that can compete for a championship.
nice thread! Gentry's method, is a good strategy for teams able to run all the time, outside that it lacks nuance. matchups rule in the NBA and coaches, like Adelman, able to identify & exploit vulnerabilities, don't always need broadsword ... a scalpel is much more efficient most times. enjoyed your thread anyway.
I like the idea of a rotation consiting of.... Starters Brooks Martin Battier Hayes Yao Second Unit Brooks/Lowry Budinger Ariza Scola Hill When Yaos in we must surround him with shooters(ab, martin, battier).... We start Chuck and Battier for solid defense & to fill voids that could arise if our guards happen to get taken off the dribble or posted up. This starting rotation would be ideal...Scola and Ariza, not to mention, Chase, would bring excellent firepower and consistency off the bench. Ariza playing with Yao, imo, will bring slashing and more slashing.I think he will bring out a better player in him. In case of emergency bring them off the bench immediately.
funnily enough this is how i do it nba 2k10, cuz im too lazy to sub them one by one. i have brooks, martin, ariza, scola and yao as starters, and lowry, budinger, battier, jeffries/scola and hill as bench. obviously it might not work as well in real life.
The only other NBA coach I know of that used a 10-man rotation was Hubie Brown. But I don't think he subbed in the whole reserved unit at the same time. Like many have already mentioned, the reason why it is rarely used in pro basketball is that you want to maximize your best players' minutes. Coaches wish these guys could be on the floor the whole time, if only they did not need rest. And each team only have 2 or 3, at most 4, players that are on this level.
