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Foreign Affairs: Saddam's Delusions

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    a fascinating article. it's quite long so i'll only post the first page. the duplicity of the french and russians is remarkable, as is the unwitting collusion of anti-war protestors with arms merchants (russians) and oil companies (french), and of course, baathists.

    --
    EDITOR'S NOTE: The fall of Baghdad in April 2003 opened one of the most secretive and brutal governments in history to outside scrutiny. For the first time since the end of World War II, American analysts did not have to guess what had happened on the other side of a conflict but could actually read the defeated enemy's documents and interrogate its leading figures. To make the most of this unique opportunity, the U.S. Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) commissioned a comprehensive study of the inner workings and behavior of Saddam Hussein's regime based on previously inaccessible primary sources. Drawing on interviews with dozens of captured senior Iraqi military and political leaders and hundreds of thousands of official Iraqi documents (hundreds of them fully translated), this two-year project has changed our understanding of the war from the ground up. The study was partially declassified in late February; its key findings are presented here.

    STRATEGIC CALCULUS

    Throughout the years of relative external peace for Iraq after Operation Desert Storm, in 1991, Saddam Hussein continued to receive and give credence to optimistic assessments of his regime's prospects dished up by his top military officers. Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz described the dictator as having been "very confident" that the United States would not dare to attack Iraq, and that if it did, it would be defeated. What was the source of Saddam's confidence?

    Judging from his private statements, the single most important element in Saddam's strategic calculus was his faith that France and Russia would prevent an invasion by the United States. According to Aziz, Saddam's confidence was firmly rooted in his belief in the nexus between the economic interests of France and Russia and his own strategic goals: "France and Russia each secured millions of dollars worth of trade and service contracts in Iraq, with the implied understanding that their political posture with regard to sanctions on Iraq would be pro-Iraqi. In addition, the French wanted sanctions lifted to safeguard their trade and service contracts in Iraq. Moreover, they wanted to prove their importance in the world as members of the Security Council -- that they could use their veto to show they still had power."

    Ibrahim Ahmad Abd al-Sattar, the Iraqi army and armed forces chief of staff, claimed that Saddam believed that even if his international supporters failed him and the United States did launch a ground invasion, Washington would rapidly bow to international pressure to halt the war. According to his personal interpreter, Saddam also thought his "superior" forces would put up "a heroic resistance and . . . inflict such enormous losses on the Americans that they would stop their advance." Saddam remained convinced that, in his own words, "Iraq will not, in any way, be like Afghanistan. We will not let the war become a picnic for the American or the British soldiers. No way!"

    When the coalition assault did come, Saddam stubbornly clung to the belief that the Americans would be satisfied with an outcome short of regime change. According to Sattar, "No Iraqi leaders had believed coalition forces would ever reach Baghdad." Saddam's conviction that his regime would survive the war was the primary reason he did not have his forces torch Iraq's oil fields or open the dams to flood the south, moves many analysts predicted would be among Iraq's first in the event of an invasion. In the words of Aziz, "[Saddam] thought that this war would not lead to this ending." Saddam realized that if his strategic calculus was correct, he would need the oil to prop up the regime. Even with U.S. tanks crossing the Iraqi border, an internal revolt remained Saddam's biggest fear. In order to quell any postwar revolt, he would need the bridges to remain intact and the land in the south to remain unflooded. On this basis, Saddam planned his moves.

    Some senior Iraqi military officers did not share their leader's assumptions, taking a more pessimistic view. The director of military intelligence, Zuhayr Talib Abd al-Sattar al-Naqib, commented that except for Saddam and the inner circle, most knowledgeable Iraqis secretly believed that the war would continue all the way to an occupation. The commander of the First Republican Guard Corps admitted, "There was nothing that could have been done to stop the Americans after they began." Sultan Hashim Ahmad al-Tai, the minister of defense, recalled that "Iraqi military professionals were not surprised at U.S. actions at all. We knew what preparations were required, and what would happen if those preparations were not done properly. . . . Even if we had a real defense, we wouldn't have stopped the Americans, but we would have made the price exaggerated."
     
  2. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Unwitting collusion of anti-war protestors with arms merchants ... I am laughing my ass off at your desperation basso
     
  3. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    you mean it wasn't unwitting?
     
  4. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    collusion
     
  5. Deckard

    Deckard Blade Runner
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    I read the entire article, and saw nothing new. I would like an explanation of the sentence I bolded, as I didn't see this supported. Could you do that, please?



    Keep D&D Civil.
     
  6. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    so who's really been acting delusional recently?
     
  7. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    i thought the article was fascinating for the insight it provided into saddam's thinking. as the article title suggested, he was truly delusional. so, however, were the french and russians, who allowed themselves to be used by saddam for the basest commercial purposes, and anti-war protestors, many of whom ignored the very real human rights abuses of the baathists, so they could use the war as a club w/ which to beat GWB.
     
  8. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Please show me an example of protestors ignoring human rights violations?

    Nobody thought Saddam was a good guy.

    The anti-war crowd could easily accuse Bush supporters of unwittingly supporting torture, mass murders, rape, and all of the things that the new Iraqi govt., and the U.S. has done in Iraq.

    But we don't. We don't do it, because even though those things happened, we know that isn't what you are supporting. Maybe one day you'll return the same courtesy.

    Yes Saddam was delusional, and he thought that what economic gain France and Russia were getting would be enough to stave off war. He was wrong. None of that has anything to do with anti war protestors ignoring Saddam's human rights violation.
     
  9. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    Please show me an example of protestors acknowledging them.
     
  10. nyquil82

    nyquil82 Contributing Member

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    You do know that technically, the French had the contract rights to the oil fields and based of post WWII agreements, we were not supposed to go there. I think they would have a right to be pissed that we took their 50 year ownership to that oil.
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Here is a quote from protestors in Iraq themselves.

    Here we see the left wing News and Letters echoing the same sentiment.
    The sentiment is again echoed at this socialist site.
    http://www.workersliberty.org/taxonomy/view/or/84?from=380

    This group of anti-war protestors changed it slightly to "No to war, No to Saddam"
    coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/ links/issue51/articles/51_42.pdf

    As did this group Open Democracy
    www.opendemocracy.net/content/articles/PDF/979.pdf

    And this from one of our Ivy League Campuses.
    www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/ 2003/03.20/11-kouchner.html

    And this group of British protestors
    www.wsws.org/articles/2003/mar2003/leed-m18.shtml

    Even though I asked you first, and you failed to answer, I have answered you, and will ask you to answer once again to show examples of protestors ignoring Saddam's human rights violations.
     
  12. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

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    I've got news for you. GWB was delusional for getting us involved in this un-winnable quagmire in the first place.
     
  13. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    [​IMG]

     
  14. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    this one is my fav...

    [​IMG]
     
  15. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Yes basso, there are some nuts on the anti-war side, as the pics have shown. They don't show anyone supporting Saddam, however.

    If you wanted to say that a minority of protestors are extreme, or crazy, then I would agree.

    But to say that anti-war protestors(as a blanket statement) unwittingly or wittingly supported Saddam, just isn't true.
     
  17. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    what are you trying to prove again? that majority in this country disapprove of bush and his war?
     
  18. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    basso, you forgot Poland.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I'm still waiting on basso to show an example of protestors supporting Saddam.
     
  20. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Contributing Member

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    Haven't you figured it out?

    In basso's mind, bashing Bush=supporting Saddam.

    There is a word for people with thought processes like that.

    The word is deluded.
     

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