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Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Jun 12, 2016.

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Will this shooting help Trump or Clinton, if it turns out that it was religiously motivated terror?

  1. It will help Trump

    51.0%
  2. It will help Clinton

    7.3%
  3. It will help neither of them

    41.7%
  1. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    That dictionary.com definition is awful.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/the-phobia-of-being-calle_b_5215218.html

    By: Ali A. Rizvi - Pakistani-Canadian writer, physician and musician

    The Phobia of Being Called Islamophobic

    As of this writing, the National September 11 Memorial Museum still hasn’t caved in. But the pressure is building, and it feels very familiar.

    The problem is a seven-minute film being shown at the soon-to-open museum called The Rise of Al Qaeda. Narrated by NBC’s Brian Williams, it uses words like “Islamist,” “Islamic,” and “jihad” in reference to the 9/11 hijackers and their motives.

    Some Muslim groups, and others like the Interfaith Center of New York, want the film edited to remove those terms. They don’t want the public to think that Islamism or jihad had anything to do with Al Qaeda or the 9/11 attacks, because that could foster “Islamophobia.” We’ve so been down this road before.

    ***

    As a brown-skinned person with a Muslim name, I can get away with a lot more than you’d think. I can publicly parade my wife or daughters around in head-to-toe burqas and be excused out of “respect” for my culture and/or religion, thanks to the racism of lowered expectations. I can re-define “racism” as something non-whites can never harbor against whites, and cite colonialism and imperialism as justification for my prejudice.

    And in an increasingly effective move that’s fast become something of an epidemic, I can shame you into silence for criticizing my ideas simply by calling you bigoted or Islamophobic.

    For decades, Muslims around the world have rightly complained about the Israeli government labeling even legitimate criticism of its policies “anti-Semitic,” effectively shielding itself from accountability. Today, Muslim organizations like CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) have borrowed a page from their playbook with the “Islamophobia” label — and taken it even further.

    In addition to calling out prejudice against Muslims (a people), the term “Islamophobia” seeks to shield Islam itself (an ideology) from criticism. It’s as if every time you said smoking was a filthy habit, you were perceived to be calling all smokers filthy people. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. But when did we start extending those rights to ideas, books, and beliefs? You’d think the difference would be clear, but it isn’t. The ploy has worked over and over again, and now everyone seems petrified of being tagged with this label.

    The phobia of being called “Islamophobic” is on the rise — and it’s becoming much more rampant, powerful, and dangerous than Islamophobia itself.

    ***

    Last month, a white American man successfully convinced the Massachusetts liberal arts school Brandeis University that he was being victimized and oppressed by a black African woman from Somalia — a woman who underwent genital mutilation at age five and travels with armed security at risk of being assassinated.

    That is the power of this term.

    The man, Ibrahim Hooper, is a Muslim convert and a founding member and spokesman for CAIR. The woman, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is an unapologetic activist for the rights of girls and women and a harsh, no-holds-barred critic of the religious ideologies (particularly the Islamic ideology in Muslim-majority countries that she experienced first-hand) that perpetuate and maintain their abuse. Having abandoned the Islamic faith of her parents and taken a stance against it, she is guilty of apostasy, a crime that is punishable by death according to most Islamic scholars, not to mention the holy text itself.

    Hirsi Ali was also involved with the award-winning documentary, Honor Diaries, which explores violence against women in honor-based societies, including female genital mutilation (FGM), honor killings, domestic violence, and forced marriage. Despite featuring the voices of several practicing Muslim women, the film was deemed “Islamophobic” by — you guessed it — the poor folks at CAIR. Again, they felt they were the real victims, wanting their own voices heard while silencing those of the victims of FGM and honor killing in the film.

    “So what?” you say. “It’s 2014. No one’s going to take that kind of position seriously, right?”

    Wrong. Astonishingly, this ludicrous argument was enough to convince both the University of Illinois and the University of Michigan to cancel their screenings of the film.

    Earlier this year, this Islamophobia-phobia also worked successfully on Katy Perry, a singer well-known for fighting her evangelical minister parents to break out of a strict Christian upbringing. Her music video for Dark Horse enraged over 60,000 angry Muslims who signed a petition demanding that it be removed for blasphemy. The video showed a man wearing an “Allah” pendant being burned to ashes, pendant and all. The scene was visible for less than a second in the original video.

    She gave in. The petition was successful, and within a day, the offending scene was edited out of the video.

    ***

    The Islamophobia pseudo-smear isn’t just used against apostates like Hirsi Ali or non-Muslims like Katy Perry. In January, British Liberal Democrat candidate and progressive Muslim Maajid Nawaz tweeted this, a cartoon with the caption:

    “This Jesus & Mo cartoon is not offensive & I’m sure God is greater than to feel threatened by it.”

    The result? Vicious death threats. A petition signed by tens of thousands to have him removed from candidacy. Targeting by Western liberal apologists. Admonishments from his own moderate Muslim counterparts. And this wasn’t in, say, Somalia. Tweets such as, “Have spoken to someone in Pakistan. They will have a surprise for him on his next visit. He is used to surprises in Pak,” came from within the UK.

    The most tragic aspect of all this is what Alishba Zarmeen has coined the “Greenwald Syndrome” — the phenomenon of Western liberals, in a supposed show of tolerance, embracing an apologist stance in favor of the intolerant.

    My good friend and writer/activist Faisal Al Mutar, who escaped repeated death threats for his secular beliefs in his native Iraq, put it best: “Many of [the Western liberals] have betrayed us liberals in the Middle East and other Muslim countries, and [inadvertently] sided with the Islamists against us.”

    After being publicly accused by Glenn Greenwald of “spouting and promoting Islamophobia,” Sam Harris responded with these words, which should be read by everyone:

    “Needless to say, there are people who hate Arabs, Somalis, and other immigrants from predominantly Muslim societies for racist reasons. But if you can’t distinguish that sort of blind bigotry from a hatred and concern for dangerous, divisive, and irrational ideas — like a belief in martyrdom, or a notion of male ‘honor’ that entails the virtual enslavement of women and girls — you are doing real harm to our public conversation. Everything I have ever said about Islam refers to the content and consequences of its doctrine. And, again, I have always emphasized that its primary victims are innocent Muslims — especially women and girls.
    There is no such thing as ‘Islamophobia.’ This is a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia. And it is doing its job, because people like you have been taken in by it.”​


    The fear of being called Islamophobic once led many prominent Westerners to abandon their own values when they abandoned Salman Rushdie. It led Yale to publish a book about the Danish Muhammad cartoon controversy, but without the cartoons. It led Comedy Central to censor the show South Park on more than one occasion for fear of offending Muslims, even though the show irreverently lambastes virtually every other religion on a regular basis, unhindered.

    This epidemic continues today with the new 9/11 museum film, the Brandeis fiasco with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, CAIR’s whining over Honor Diaries, the Katy Perry video, and the Maajid Nawaz cartoon tweet controversy — all within this year — where too many Westerners are falling on the wrong side.

    As I’ve written before, this is an effective deterrent. This is exactly how terrorism works. This is how perfectly intelligent, well-read writers, commentators, and broadcasters become silenced by the Islamophobia smear fear — and rationalize themselves into becoming unaware victims of it.

    When you’re unable to introduce Pakistan-style blasphemy laws in a secular, Western society, you have to find alternative ways to silence those who offend you, right?

    And that’s where the “Islamophobia” smear comes in — the ultimate, lazy substitute for a non-existent counter-argument. Don’t fall for it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    You have to hand it to Islam. Two prong defense of criticism. Terrorism and fear of being called a bigot. All Scientology has is being highly litigious.
     
  3. Amiga

    Amiga 10 years ago...
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    If you don't like the term Islamophobia, how about XYZ which means an intense dislike or fear of Islam, which translate to hostility or prejudice toward Muslims.

    That exists. The incident of hate crimes toward people that look like Muslim sharply increased after 911 in the US. Good news is I believe it has settled down and stayed fairly flat (unfortunately, it's not decreasing) in the US.

    Valid criticism of Islam require neither justification nor generalization.
     
  4. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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  5. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Islamophobia is a term of propaganda designed to protect Islam from the forces of secularism by conflating all criticism of it with racism and xenophobia
     
  6. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I think it's pretty safe to say that banning Muslims and wanting to profile them is indeed Islamophobia. If you are afraid of a worshipper of Islam, and concerned when a Muslim is on a plane with you or moving into your neighborhood, yes, you are an Islamophobe.

    It's not about language, it's about fear and discrimination.
     
  7. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    I'm scared of lawsuits from Scientology and so are most major media outlets, magazines and production companies. Is that bigoted? Or is it not because that is a real threat from wealthy republican wackos?

    If the difference is Scientology is a real threat then how many gay people need to be killed by Muslim democrats before it isn't called a phobia
     
  8. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    No, Islamophobia is a propaganda term. Wanting to entirely ban Muslims from entering the country is bigotry, because it is directed against people and not against an ideology. I'd argue it would also be unconstitutional.

    Putting some extra scrutiny on someone who looks like a Salafist before employing them as airport security or at airport security is just reasonably playing the odds. If someone decides to adopt a similar look to Adolf Hitler and therefore makes a political statement with their appearance, giving them extra scrutiny would also be ok in my opinion. And Salafists make a political statement with their appearance.
     
  9. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    No being scared of a lawsuit from Scientology is different from being afraid of scientologists in terms of your security in whatever fashion.

    To have fear of a group in this case Islam - is by definition Islamophobia.

    There are certainly people who misuse the term Islamophobia but that doesn't change the definition and meaning of the word. Being critical of Islam doesn't make one an Islamaphobe. Talking about Islamists doesn't either. But when you spread fear or bigotry such as banning Muslims - that is tapping into Islamophobia and that is what Trump is doing. When a woman reports a man as suspicious for speaking Arabic on a plane and nothing else - that is Islamophobia.

    In the U.S. you can not deny someone a job for their religious beliefs - doesn't matter if they believe in Sharia law or not, or if they look like they do. You can't even ask a prospective employee that. To give them extra scrutiny would be a direct violation of the constitution. You can't do that without an amendment.

    You can look at what groups a person belongs to and do a background check. Do I think people who say violent things in social media should be denied a job? That's perfectly legitimate. But their religion is off-limits.

    I am more scared about the compromising of religious liberty than a whacko getting an airport security job. Why? Because I know there is a lot of background checks and the FBI does a pretty great job at catching nearly 100% of those who would commit atrocious acts. But a few slip through.

    As a secularist, I would be threatened by a country where the way someone looks or what religion they belong to could be used to deny someone a job or require extra "scrutiny".

    It's un-American.
     
  10. sammy

    sammy Contributing Member

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    #890 sammy, Jun 21, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yes..... Let's take this enormous pile of facts and bury them and jump on a claim from a man on Univision.

    Indeed this clearly had nothing to do with radical Islam.
     
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  12. sammy

    sammy Contributing Member

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    Okay, Donald. Say it. Just say it. They don't even want to say it.
     
  13. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    That makes no sense. You just wrote words and hoped people would take it as an answer.


    The delusion is beyond comprehension at this point.
     
  14. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    I don't think these things are mutually exclusive: repressed homosexuality + revenge + self-loathing + looking to identify with fundamentalists as a way "out".

    I'm sure he's not the first or last closeted dude to welcome the cocktail of daddy's old time religion mixed with ultraviolence to take the edge off. And I'm sure fundamentalist Islam is like every other religion in terms of what goes on when you segregate by gender: there is no doubt some serious boy on boy romance going on in terrorist training camps just like there is the yeshiva.
     
  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Donald?

    I am not voting for Donald Trump.

    Between this thread and the Baylor thread, you aren't coming off so great.
     
  16. RocketsLegend

    RocketsLegend Member

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    Liberals took the word Islamophobia and ran with it. Shame how easily today's liberals can get manipulated.
     
  17. Deji McGever

    Deji McGever יליד טקסני

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    If there is a question regarding the intersection of homosexuality and Islam, it is best to trust an expert:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PRpiwa3so8U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
     
  18. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I'd offer a definition of Islamophobia as: An irrational fear or hatred of Muslims. You can fear and/or hate Muslims without being an Islamophobe if you have a rational reason. Iranian Jews are not Islamophobes for fearing Muslims in Iran. Same for gays in Syria. They have fears that are well-grounded in reality. But people who get scared when they hear Allah's name or see a woman in a burq'a -- that's irrational behavior. When that irrational behavior crosses into the political realm and people start advocating positions that impugn the motivations of all Muslims or would discriminate against all of them for fear of the intentions of a few, then Islamophobia becomes a socially dangerous phenomenon. I agree with ATW that the term is swung about a bit too liberally and without due consideration. It's an accusation that shuts down dialogue. But likewise, pretending like "Islamophobia" is only a tool of propaganda and not a real phenomenon is not a defensible position to take and likewise makes real dialogue on important issues of security and civil liberties hard to progress.

    I wondered if this angle would come up. It can be both revenge and islamic terror.
     
  19. sammy

    sammy Contributing Member

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    I was making fun of his insistence of making eveything about radical Islam. Simmer down, Francis. I couldn't give two sh!ts about what you think. Go whine about UH not being at the big boy's table now with lengthy posts that people just read over.
     
  20. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Too long for dictionary.com.

    Seriously, your definition is flawed. Islamophobia would have to be directed at Islam as an ideology, and it would have to be irrational. Criticism of Islam is not irrational. Thus, the term is stupid.

    Now, "Muslimphobia" would be irrational, and more fitting to your description.
     

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