Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Bobbythegreat · Jun 20, 2016

Bandwagoner said: ↑

That is a ridiculous argument. His picture and personal life, history and possible sexual activity has been posted all over the news. This is redacting a specific part.
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Well yeah, that specific part destroys the narrative they wanted to push, that this was a hate crime instead of terrorism. They wanted to make people think he was a closet homosexual who was pushed over the top by a society of homophobic people and that need more hate crime legislation.

Commodore · Jun 20, 2016

REEKO_HTOWN said: ↑

Actually it's the same as not mentioning a manifesto. The killer wants his voice to be heard.
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It's also an impotent gesture, given we all know what Mateen said.

It just makes the administration look like cowards (and we know they wouldn't censor any other motive)

Bobbythegreat · Jun 20, 2016

Commodore said: ↑

It's also an impotent gesture, given we all know what Mateen said.

It just makes the administration look like cowards (and we know they wouldn't censor any other motive)
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The administration was about to come out and say that Mateen did this because of a Youtube video so they were pretty upset about having that spin go down in flames before they could even put it out there.

Commodore · Jun 20, 2016

MISDIRECTION -- The government’s decision to capriciously redact public information is insulting on its face (meanwhile FBI parcels out narrative-building tidbits to favored news orgs). More importantly, the secrecy is dangerous. From the outset, the Orlando Police Department’s response to the June 12 shooting raised questions about either the protocols or judgment calls. Since a mass shooting will happen again, the public needs to know if there was a breakdown of procedure, of leadership or both. Releasing a redacted transcript of Mateen calling and ranting only goes so far. And editing his comments (no matter how abhorrent or insane) creates a political diversion to keep the public from getting the info it really needs:

-- ALL THE 911 CALLS: There could have been as many 300 people in Pulse. How many called 911? What did they say? When did they start and stop calling? The answers will help fill out the picture of what went wrong (if anything) in the disaster response.

-- POLICE RADIO TRAFFIC: What were police saying and doing? Who gave what orders and when? Here’s why it’s important: police officers MADE IT INSIDE THE CLUB. But then they RETREATED. Why? Who gave that order? What was the risk-assessment math? THREE HOURS AFTER the shooting started, 49 people were dead along with the shooter; 53 wounded. Every second counted. Mateen had HOURS. The wounded didn’t.

PROTOCOL FAIL? – After the 1999 Columbine High School massacre, law enforcement realized active shooters have to be stopped quickly, not bargained with or given time. That realization gave rise to what’s called the Active Shooter response protocol, which basically says that once two police officers are on scene at an active shooting, they should go get the shooter, said Chris Grollneck, a former police officer and expert on the subject. Police everywhere are trained in it. By 2:15 a.m. June 12 – 13 minutes after Orlando PD issued an All Call Major Alert -- 11 officers were at the club after Mateen had exchanged gunfire with one off-duty cop working Pulse security, according to this excellent Miami Herald timeline. Mateen was, by definition, an active shooter. Yet somehow, officers either didn’t pursue Mateen into the club or they were pulled out.

PROTOCOL SWITCH? – Police have explained that they switched from an active-shooter protocol to dealing with a barricaded person, so they decided not to pursue. Grollneck says that makes no sense because the shooter had already shown he’s a homicidal maniac who would systematically kill. In the end, SWAT stormed the building anyway. But it was three hours later. And some people probably bled out while waiting for help. Grollneck said it should have ended much earlier:

--“If you have 300 people inside a club. It’s dark. There’s loud music and you can’t see but you know there’s people screaming and somebody shooting, you follow the muzzle flash until you hit that person and make the muzzle flash stop –at the peril of your own risk. Being a policeman is a dangerous job. That’s why they give policemen guns. Everybody inside that club did not have a gun. When the police were ordered out, no one had a gun except the gunman. And he then systematically shot people … while making phone calls and posting to social media and sending text messages.”

LEADERSHIP ‘FAILED’ – Asked what the 911 calls from the patrons and the police radio traffic would tell us, Grollneck said: “It will tell you the leadership of the Orlando Police Department failed the people inside the club.” Q: do you think that’s why Orlando is not releasing the info? Grollneck: “I do. I think Orlando Police Department’s Swat Team is one of the best in the country and the patrol is one of the best-trained in the country… this was risk-adversity by supervisors. And I think it was career apprehension.”

THE BOMB TALK – The blood hadn’t yet dried on that hot Sunday morning when politicians began praising Orlando PD. And quickly the department and the politicians began explaining that police thought Mateen had explosives. But that might be an after-the-fact justification (we don’t know because this info has not been made public). Initially, some officers were actually following protocol and were in the club. Also, Grollneck said, the FBI’s “Coming Storm” training video for police released last year doesn’t tell officers to refrain from going after an active shooter if they think there’s a bomb. Grollneck one last time:

-- “Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. There’s reports the guy has a suicide vest or possible bombs. Now we know it’s a terrorist attack … what’s the No. 1 threat from a terrorist? It’s a weapon of mass destruction, a WMD. So if you think a terrorist is there with a WMD in a nightclub with 300 people, do you not go in to give him time to activate the bomb that could kill 100,000 people outside? Or do you go in and take the chance immediately at the risk of 300 people?”
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Read more: http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/f...ly-poll-im-beating-crist-214891#ixzz4C8x34MZD
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

Northside Storm · Jun 20, 2016

okierock said: ↑

It's a pretty good post. It's too bad the two sides can't find their own places and we have to share our apartments.
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yeah, it is too bad.

If you look at the peaceful, rural towns and communities that dot America, they are functioning quite well with very little intervention from government
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I normally don't treat Jorge seriously, but seeing as this is a good intro to the superiority of cities, urban economies, and 21st century economics vs 20th century decay---

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303325204579463761632103386

Large swaths of rural America are struggling with shrinking populations despite an oil boom that has drawn a surge of residents into states such as North Dakota, a trend that mirrors the shift from an economy revolving around farming and manufacturing toward a greater reliance on high-level services.
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http://science.time.com/2013/07/23/...ut-that-cities-are-the-safest-places-to-live/

According to a new study (PDF) published today in the Annals of Emergency Medicine, large cities in the U.S. are significantly safer than rural areas. The risk of injury death — which counts both violent crime and accidents — is more than 20% higher in the countryside than it is in large urban areas. “Perceptions have long existed that cities were innately more dangerous than areas outside of cities, but our study shows this is not the case,” said the lead author, Dr. Sage R. Myers of the University of Pennsylvania and the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia in a statement. Far from being violent death traps, a large city might just about be the safest place to live in the U.S.
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http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/08/price-rural-life-0

The LA Times warns budget cutters, who are disproportionately from non-urban districts, who the big losers are likely to be from their efforts:

The recipients with the most to lose are the ones in rural America, who are almost twice as reliant on federal largesse as city dwellers and suburbanites. A recent fight over subsidies for flights to small-town airports is a good example of the battles likely to come. It also illustrates the trade-offs that Congress will confront as it tries to close the yawning federal budget gap.
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Urban dwellers are the apartment livers building America: rural citizens are not self-sufficient, they are the paupers on the street conservatives deride.

America is being led by its dynamic mega-city economies, areas rich in diversity and entrepreneurial immigrants. Silicon Valley and the Greater Bay Area, New York City, Los Angeles, Boston--not the plains of the Datokas, beyond a binge of fossil fuels. And certainly not West Virginia.

America is a tale of blue cities supporting red, deadbeat wastelands.

http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/04/global-economic-dominance-us-cities/1787/

Collectively, America's cities contribute more to global GDP than the rest of the world's cities combined.

Cities are the base of the United States' economic strength. But not just New York and Los Angeles. More than 250 of the country's urban centers are responsible for the country's economic prosperity and dominance in the world economy. And though cities all over the world are responsible for major contributions to the global gross domestic product, the concentration of large – and especially semi-large – cities in the U.S. outperforms them all.

Over the next 15 years, cities in the U.S. are expected to create more than 10 percent of the world's GDP – a collective economic impact greater than that of any other country, according to a new report from the McKinsey Global Institute.

The large cities of the U.S., 259 in total, are responsible for about 85 percent of the country's GDP.
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Hell, MIT alone, if you were to isolate its graduates and the products of their labour, would be the 8th largest economy in the world. (MIT it should be noted, and not HBS, or Wharton, or Yale Law).

STEM-based innovation is the future. Dynamic urban economies are the cornerstone of American prosperity and wealth. Therein lie the creators, while rural hinterlands are filled with young people struggling to find there way in, away from a dying remnant of the 20th century--a land of paupers that take away from urban taxpayers.

You are simply deluded if you believe rural America is in any way superior to urban America. The only way to explain this thinking is the Kundaraesque thought that anything under the sunshine of nostalgia shines, even the guillotine.

Urban economies in America are manifestly superior to anything happening in rural America, in any measure--gun violence, rates of death, health outcomes, economic metrics, % contribution to GDP, educational attainment, dependence on federal funds, drug usage, life expectancy...to deny it is to deny fact and reason.

I'll end off by quoting the National Review, which makes no bones of its elitism and classism in laying out the bare truth on this topic, because f**k political correctness:

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...dysfunction-real-opportunity-needed-not-trump

The Washington Post’s “Wonkbook” newsletter compared the counties Trump won in the so-called Super Tuesday primaries with the demographic data and found trends that will surprise no one who has been paying attention (and certainly no one, I hope, who has been reading this magazine). The life expectancies among non-college-educated white Americans have been plummeting in an almost unprecedented fashion, a trend not seen on such a large scale since the collapse of the Soviet Union and the social anarchy that prevailed in Russia afterward. Trump counties had proportionally fewer people with college degrees. Trump counties had fewer people working. And the white people in Trump counties were likely to die younger. The causes of death were “increased rates of disease and ill health, increased drug overdose and abuse, and suicide,” the Post’s Wonkblog website reported.

It is immoral because it perpetuates a lie: that the white working class that finds itself attracted to Trump has been victimized by outside forces. It hasn’t. The white middle class may like the idea of Trump as a giant pulsing humanoid middle finger held up in the face of the Cathedral, they may sing hymns to Trump the destroyer and whisper darkly about “globalists” and — odious, stupid term — “the Establishment,” but nobody did this to them. They failed themselves.

If you spend time in hardscrabble, white upstate New York, or eastern Kentucky, or my own native West Texas, and you take an honest look at the welfare dependency, the drug and alcohol addiction, the family anarchy — which is to say, the whelping of human children with all the respect and wisdom of a stray dog — you will come to an awful realization. It wasn’t Beijing. It wasn’t even Washington, as bad as Washington can be. It wasn’t immigrants from Mexico, excessive and problematic as our current immigration levels are. It wasn’t any of that.

Nothing happened to them. There wasn’t some awful disaster. There wasn’t a war or a famine or a plague or a foreign occupation. Even the economic changes of the past few decades do very little to explain the dysfunction and negligence — and the incomprehensible malice — of poor white America. So the gypsum business in Garbutt ain’t what it used to be. There is more to life in the 21st century than wallboard and cheap sentimentality about how the Man closed the factories down.
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and the coup de grace:

The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets. Morally, they are indefensible. Forget all your cheap theatrical Bruce Springsteen crap. Forget your sanctimony about struggling Rust Belt factory towns and your conspiracy theories about the wily Orientals stealing our jobs. Forget your goddamned gypsum, and, if he has a problem with that, forget Ed Burke, too. The white American underclass is in thrall to a vicious, selfish culture whose main products are misery and used heroin needles. Donald Trump’s speeches make them feel good. So does OxyContin. What they need isn’t analgesics, literal or political. They need real opportunity, which means that they need real change, which means that they need U-Haul. If you want to live, get out of Garbutt.
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The best rural America can expect is a strong social safety net funded by the creative classes within cities. Even the urban underclass isn't as desperate as the dying communities that dot the middle of nowhere. Manufacturing isn't coming back. And fossil fuels won't last forever. We are right in between major structural changes in the economy--the eye between the storms of integrating a global economy and automation.

Even without the storms having truly started, rural communities are struggling for their lives. The worst that can be done is what they are doing to themselves already by staying.

...now back to your regularly scheduled programming about a near-null statistical risk that kills orders of magnitude less people than the discrepancy between rural and urban economies.

Outlier · Jun 20, 2016

Wow that is dumb. Makes me want to vote for Trump

mr. 13 in 33 · Jun 20, 2016

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">US Supreme Court won't hear challenge to a ban on semi-automatic rifles. <a href="https://t.co/1DjQDPHsj8">https://t.co/1DjQDPHsj8</a></p>— NBC Nightly News (@NBCNightlyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/status/744963326266875906">June 20, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Bobbythegreat · Jun 20, 2016

mr. 13 in 33 said: ↑

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">US Supreme Court won't hear challenge to a ban on semi-automatic rifles. <a href="https://t.co/1DjQDPHsj8">https://t.co/1DjQDPHsj8</a></p>— NBC Nightly News (@NBCNightlyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews/status/744963326266875906">June 20, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I'm fine with things like that happening at the local level, just not at the federal level. If certain states want to ban certain weapons, I think that's their right....within reason.

RocketsLegend · Jun 20, 2016

The obama administration is embarrassing themselves. What a ****ing joke.

RocketsLegend · Jun 20, 2016

This administration should be c[omitted].

Cohete Rojo · Jun 20, 2016

Now they've released the full transcripts. Why? This just makes it look like there was some kind of ulterior motive.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSKCN0Z61FQ

Amiga · Jun 20, 2016

These are the folks you don't want to alienate

man who attended same mosque reported Mateen to FBI

Sweet Lou 4 2 · Jun 20, 2016

txtony said: ↑

These are the folks you don't want to alienate

man who attended same mosque reported Mateen to FBI
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So funny because Trump claimed it was the guy who sold the guns who reported him, and that Muslims needed to say something.

Turns out Trump had the facts all mixed up - no surprise. Trump is way too reckless with the truth - the man is definitely not fit to be president or hold any office for that matter.

Amiga · Jun 20, 2016

Sweet Lou 4 2 said: ↑

So funny because Trump claimed it was the guy who sold the guns who reported him, and that Muslims needed to say something.

Turns out Trump had the facts all mixed up - no surprise. Trump is way too reckless with the truth - the man is definitely not fit to be president or hold any office for that matter.
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I think the piece is a good read. It gives you a window a Muslim perspective living in America. And again, these the people we do not want to alienate. We also see the potential dangers of islamophobia.

Donald Trump believes American Muslims are hiding something. “They know what’s going on. They know that [Omar Mateen] was bad,” he said after the Orlando massacre. “They have to cooperate with law enforcement and turn in the people who they know are bad. … But you know what? They didn’t turn them in. And you know what? We had death and destruction.”

This is a common idea in the United States. It’s also a lie. First, Muslims like me can’t see into the hearts of other worshipers. (Do you know the hidden depths of everyone in your community?) Second, Trump is wrong that we don’t speak up when we’re able.

I know this firsthand: I was the one who told the FBI about Omar Mateen.

I met Omar for the first time in 2006 at an iftar meal at my brother-in-law’s house. As the women, including his mother and sisters, chatted in the living room, I sat with the men on the patio and got to know him and his father. Omar broke his Ramadan fast with a protein shake. He was quiet — then and always — and let his dad do the talking.

I’d seen them before at the oldest mosque in the area, the Islamic Center of Fort Pierce. We have a lot of immigrants in our community. They grew up in other countries, often with different sensibilities. A few don’t understand American culture, and they struggle to connect with their American-born or American-raised kids.

I came here from Pakistan in 1979 when I was 6 years old, grew up in Queens (like Omar) and Fort Lauderdale, went through the American education system, and assimilated well. So I was able to make better inroads with young people in our community, including that introverted teenager I met at the iftar. I tried to stay in touch with the younger generation, acting as a mentor when I could.

I saw Omar from time to time over the next decade, and we developed a relationship because most of the other Muslim kids in his age group went elsewhere for college, and he stayed behind. We mostly spoke over the phone or texted with one another a half-dozen times per year. We talked about the lack of social programs at the mosque, especially for teens and young adults like him. I often played pranks on him. Once, around 2009, I attached LED lights to the tires of his car, so when he drove the wheels glowed neon. He laughed when he figured it out a few days later.

Soon after Omar married and moved to his own home, he began to come to the mosque more often. Then he went on a religious trip to Saudi Arabia. There was nothing to indicate that he had a dark side, even when he and his first wife divorced.

But as news reports this week have made clear, Omar did have a dark outlook on life. Partly, he was upset at what he saw as racism in the United States – against Muslims and others. When he worked as a security guard at the St. Lucie County Courthouse, he told me visitors often made nasty or bigoted remarks to him about Islam. He overheard people saying ugly things about African Americans, too. Since Sept. 11, I’ve thought the only way to answer Islamophobia was to be polite and kind; the best way to counter all the negativity people were seeing on TV about Islam was by showing them the opposite. I urged Omar to volunteer and help people in need – Muslim or otherwise (charity is a pillar of Islam). He agreed, but was always very worked up about this injustice.

Then, during the summer of 2014, something traumatic happened for our community. A boy from our local mosque, Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, was 22 when he became the first American-born suicide bomber, driving a truck full of explosives into a government office in Syria. He’d traveled there and joined a group affiliated with al-Qaeda, the previous year. We had all known Moner; he was jovial and easygoing, the opposite of Omar. According to a posthumous video released that summer, he had clearly self-radicalized – and had also done so by listening to the lectures of Anwar al-Awlaki, the charismatic Yemen-based imam who helped radicalize several Muslims, including the Fort Hood shooter. Everyone in the area was shocked and upset. We hate violence and were horrified that one of our number could have killed so many. (After an earlier training mission to Syria, he’d tried to recruit a few Florida friends to the cause. They told the FBI about him.)

Immediately after Moner’s attack, news reports said that American officials didn’t know anything about him; I read that they were looking for people to give them some background. So I called the FBI and offered to tell investigators a bit about the young man. It wasn’t much – we hadn’t been close – but I’m an American Muslim, and I wanted to do my part. I didn’t want another act like that to happen. I didn’t want more innocent people to die. Agents asked me if there were any other local kids who might resort to violence in the name of Islam. No names sprang to mind.

After my talk with the FBI, I spoke to people in the Islamic community, including Omar, abut Moner’s attack. I wondered how he could have radicalized. Both Omar and I attended the same mosque as Moner, and the imam never taught hate or radicalism. That’s when Omar told me he had been watching videos of Awlaki, too, which immediately raised red flags for me. He told me the videos were very powerful.

After speaking with Omar, I contacted the FBI again to let them know that Omar had been watching Awlaki’s tapes. He hadn’t committed any acts of violence and wasn’t planning any, as far as I knew. And I thought he probably wouldn’t, because he didn’t fit the profile: He already had a second wife and a son. But it was something agents should keep their eyes on. I never heard from them about Omar again, but apparently they did their job: They looked into him and, finding nothing to go on, they closed the file.

Omar and I continued to have infrequent conversations over the next few years. I last saw him at a dinner at his father’s house in January. We talked about the presidential election and debated our views of the candidates that were running – he liked Hillary Clinton and I liked Bernie Sanders. This banter continued through texts and phone calls for several months. My last conversation with Omar was by phone in mid-May. He called me while he was at the beach with his son to tell me about a vacation he’d taken with his father to Orlando the previous weekend. He’d been impressed by the local mosque.

What happened next is well-known. We’re still in shock. We’re totally against what he did, and we feel the deepest sadness for the victims and their families. If you don’t agree with someone, you don’t have the right to kill them. We are taught to be kind to all of God’s creation. Islam is very strict about killing: Even in war – to say nothing of peace – you cannot harm women, children, the elderly, the sick, clergymen, or even plants. You can’t mutilate dead bodies. You can’t destroy buildings, especially churches or temples. You can’t force anyone to accept Islam. “If anyone slew one person, it would be as if he killed the whole of humanity,” says the Koran.

I had told the FBI about Omar because my community, and Muslims generally, have nothing to hide. I love this country, like most Muslims that I know. I don’t agree with every government policy (I think there’s too much money in politics, for instance), but I’m proud to be an American. I vote. I volunteer. I teach my children to treat all people kindly. Our families came here because it is full of opportunity – a place where getting a job is about what you know, not who you know. It’s a better country to raise children than someplace where the electricity is out for 18 hours a day, where politicians are totally corrupt, or where the leader is a dictator.

But there’s so much suspicion of Islam here. The local paper published an unsigned editorial called “Leave our peaceful Muslim neighbors alone,” and the comments were full of hateful lies – that the Boston bombers had visited the area, that the Sept. 11 bombers came from here, that we were a hotbed of violent ideology. None of this is true. Donald Trump didn’t create these attitudes, but he plays on them and amplifies them.

I am not the first American Muslim to report on someone; people who do that simply don’t like to announce themselves in to the media. For my part, I’m not looking for personal accolades. I’m just tired of negative rhetoric and ignorant comments about my faith. Trump’s assertions about our community – that we have the ability to help our country but have simply declined to do so – are tragic, ugly and wrong.

[Editor’s note: A federal law enforcement official confirmed the author’s cooperation to The Washington Post.]

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prohibido · Jun 21, 2016

Northside Storm said: ↑

yeah, it is too bad.
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Backboard shattering post that soars above thinking that is the intellectual equivalent of Harden's defense.

Sweep up the glass, necks.

AroundTheWorld · Jun 21, 2016

txtony said: ↑

These are the folks you don't want to alienate

man who attended same mosque reported Mateen to FBI
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Agreed. He did the right thing by reporting him.

However, I would be curious to know the percentage of Muslims who - at least to some extent - feel like Mohammed A. Malik was a traitor by reporting a fellow Muslim to the FBI. I hope this gentleman is safe from backlash and threats from certain elements of the Muslim community.

txtony said: ↑

We also see the potential dangers of islamophobia.
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There is nothing wrong with being highly critical of Islam, as long as Muslims are treated with respect and equally to others (with the potential exception of some profiling at airports being justified). "Islamophobia" is an invented term used to try and prevent valid criticism of a supremacist ideology.

AroundTheWorld · Jun 21, 2016

Cohete Rojo said: ↑

Now they've released the full transcripts. Why? This just makes it look like there was some kind of ulterior motive.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSKCN0Z61FQ
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The Florida nightclub killer called himself an "Islamic soldier"
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In a first call he made to a 911 emergency operator, Mateen said "I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, may God protect him, on behalf of the Islamic State," referring to the head of Islamic State.
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sammy said: ↑

What don't you get? This wasn't about Islam. It was about being gay and not being able to bear it. It's a hate crime at the end of the day.
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sammy said: ↑

A guy that was a closet homosexual and hit up dudes on the low while being married and drank to the point of being belligerent is religious. Riiiight.
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sammy said: ↑

He was gay. Point blank
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This was about Islam, sammy. Come on. You are better than that. Yeah, him being a self-hating gay might also have played a role, but...

justtxyank · Jun 21, 2016

AroundTheWorld said: ↑

Agreed. He did the right thing by reporting him.

However, I would be curious to know the percentage of Muslims who - at least to some extent - feel like Mohammed A. Malik was a traitor by reporting a fellow Muslim to the FBI. I hope this gentleman is safe from backlash and threats from certain elements of the Muslim community.
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Snitches get snitches wasn't invented by Muslims.

RocketsLegend · Jun 21, 2016

Islamophobia is not a real word

JuanValdez · Jun 21, 2016

RocketsLegend said: ↑

Islamophobia is not a real word
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http://www.dictionary.com/browse/islamophobia?s=t

Like how "ain't" ain't a word?

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Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Will this shooting help Trump or Clinton, if it turns out that it was religiously motivated terror?

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Florida Night Club Shooting - at least 20 dead - impact on US elections?

Will this shooting help Trump or Clinton, if it turns out that it was religiously motivated terror?

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