I find these responses from you to always be frustrating. Was Turkey better before the rise of the AKP? Turkey couldn't even run a government without a military coup. The economy was in shambles for decades. That wasn't democracy at all. That was what we have in Egypt today. Faux democracy with a military willing to do what it wants to maintain power. I guess women were banned from using headscarves (which they are banned from doing in that other bastion of freedom known as Syria). I have many issues with the AKP but you can't argue with what their results. They've turned a broken economy into a growing powerhouse with double digit GDP growth. They've created stability in a country that has never seen any because any ruling government was always at the risk of a coup. Their constitutional reforms in 2010 (which I bet you dislike) were unanimously supported by European nations because it specifically restricted the military's ability to overthrow governments. Erdogan is using his position to take control as the voice of the Islamic world. And that will create issues with someone like you (and even some issues with me). But at the end of the day, its a democratically elected government that has a lot of support. On the flip side, the CHP (the party Ataturk created) is run by a bunch of morons. They still haven't embraced the market reforms that the AKP instituted so until they do they'll be seen as the leftist idiots who want Turkey to live in the old days when the economy was in tatters. So stop blaming Erdogan and start focusing on the CHP's inability to acknowledge reality. The military isn't going to overthrow a government for them anymore and they'll start having to win based on their merits. Until then, the AKP will continue to dominate elections.
Mathloom is breaking it down quite well. I know it hurts us americans to hear about our idiotic foreign policy and favoritism but it's the truth. We are the greatest empire known to man and things such as the arab israeli conflict will only get sorted out if we are major players within the negotiations. Unfortunately we are so biased towards israel that there will never be a realistic and fair approach to this situation. Also this 2 party system of ours is a complete and utter joke. People like Ron Paul who actually has a progressive approach to many of our problems will never get elected. It's the same ole story. We preach democracy to the world yet our own democracy is one probably the biggest joke of a democracy on the planet. It's a shame that our own citizens are too busy watching keeping up with the kardashians or eating food at the local buffet to give a damn. I for one am embarrassed and ashamed at times to even call myself an american.
Which makes it even more absurd that you use America as the scapegoat for everything. But I guess it makes it easier to explain your own failures.
I will concede that they managed to achieve good economic growth, for the time being, which is good for the people in the country. It is also true that Turkey had a problem with frequent military coups. What I observe, however, is that Erdogan countered the problem of frequent military coups not with more real democracy, but by concentrating more power in his own party. His treatment of Kurds and Armenians is very questionable. He arrested and put on trial about 400 students, journalists, politicians and soldiers. He changed the constitution so that he appoints 14 of 17 constitutional court judges, which basically means a huge erosion of the democratic concept of a separation of powers. http://www.economist.com/node/21548261 I know that Erdogan is very popular in Turkey, even with some of my friends there who grew up in Germany. But as I said, I personally think he is leading Turkey down a dangerous path because he paves the road for Islamists who are even less democratic than he is. The military guaranteed secularism in Turkey, which, I believe, has been what allowed Turkey to become relatively successful compared to its Arab allies. Now that he has completely crushed the military and the judicial branch, who will keep an Islamist movement in check that could ultimately lead Turkey back to the dark ages and make it something like some of the Arab countries? On the other hand, I think Erdogan is obviously a lot more reasonable than, e.g., the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. You can already see that a conflict between these two is brewing. He told them a secular state would be best for Egypt and the other "Arab spring" countries, and they reacted very harshly. First, they thought he could help install a Caliphate - and they share a joint hate against Israel with him - but they are too uneducated to even understand the current Turkish model. http://www.alarabiya.net/views/2011/09/18/167439.html
Yeah. These U.S. military bases in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, the UK and Norway have really stopped these countries from developing a functioning democracy, so that's a great excuse for yourself . Your "logic" is so flawed it is laughable. And yeah, these alleged American troops in Russia and China and Venezuela (LOL??) you claim are there, taken from an atheist kid's blog (what is the actual source for this inaccurate map?), must be causing huge problems in your head. Add to that the ridiculous stuff about not being able to say what you want because you could step on "the admin's toes" (as if Clutch gave a damn what nonsense you spew next) and you are once again proving to be the laughingstock of this subforum. What the hell? Because the US have military bases in (democratic) European countries, you guys can't build a democracy? LOLWUT? That will be great because then those idiots from Saudi who try to spread Islamofascist ideas all over the world will eventually run out of funds for their backwardness.
That is true, but it's more fun with the personal attacks because you deserve them, plus you made just as many, so it's just a back and forth. The point is, they agree with me on the merits - you are wrong. And again, that map you posted is wrong, too...American troops in Venezuela? LOL?
Yes, it does. You blame your lack of democracy on American presence in the region. At the same time, you post a map that shows that American troops are basically everywhere in the world. So, based on your "logic", there could not be democracy anywhere in the world. But there is. So your excuse is invalid. Yes, the islamofascist ideology has been the cause of killing millions. There are various sources, but one estimate is at 270 million dead because of it. http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/tears-of-jihad/
Let's look at the numbers you posted yourself (from the Wikipedia link above): Africa and the Middle East Bahrain – 2,142 Diego Garcia - 292 Djibouti – 335 Egypt – 251 Kuwait - 10,548 Qatar – 621 Saudi Arabia - 274 Turkey – 1,491 United Arab Emirates - 151 That's a grand total of maybe around 16,000 people. 151 in the UAE. Are you seriously claiming that because of that presence, you guys cannot build a democracy? Are you saying that because of a measly 151 American military personnel in the UAE, you are working for a dictatorship?
Guys, I'm out of this thread. Rocketsjudoka/geemisbored, email me through the board if you want to discuss.
As I said before I can agree that US intervention hasn't been good for the Middle East but I don't think that means the US is the primary cause for the failure of Arab democracy. As I noted other regions have also suffered from US intervention but have been able to become democratic and successful. I think this is a complicated issue and no single reason is out there for why the Middle East is in the state it is. The problem with Ron Paul is that he is a package deal. There are many things that most Americans could support about him and many things that they won't. I personally agree with a lot of the Ron Paul's foreign policy positions but overall I think a Ron Paul presidency will be disastrous. Further if you are complaining about the two party system consider that Ron Paul is a part of that and hasn't show any indication so far to leave the Republican party and run as an independent or start a third party.
Sure the American government supports that, don't listen to the crumbling governments in the middle east that are raping the resources from their countries and pocketing the monies in secret swiss bank accounts. The people need to take over.....COME ON SYRIA, you can do it ! DD
