El Salvador and Guatemala Currently Have the Highest Murder Rates in the World

I brought data. What did you bring?

 

These people — @Major, @FranchiseBlade, and @Sweet Lou 4 2 — don’t reason with data.

 

I didn't see the data that said the reason why was because of DACA. Was it in there and I missed it? Since you are such a data master maybe you can help out with that.

 

Do you realize that to qualify for DACA you had to be in the country prior to June 2012? How are people coming in now hoping to qualify for DACA?

 

Because when you make the case that illegals who got into the country as children should be given citizenship it makes them think there's a chance that they will eventually get it too. Any type of amnesty always causes an increase in illegal immigration because it gives them hope that they'll be able to completely circumvent they system if they can avoid getting caught for long enough. Give it 10 years, you're telling me those on the left won't be asking for another round of DACA for illegals who grew up in the US? They are already on record saying that those who grew up here should get citizenship, why would their opinion change?

In 2012 Obama sent the message to the world that if you are a child that sneaks into the country and you make it a while without getting caught, you should be allowed to stay and then bring in your entire family. People at the time said that what he was doing would lead to an increase in unaccompanied minors and that's exactly what happened.

 

So they are coming based on a non-existent future similar program?

DACA sent the message that if you were brought in when you were a child that had no choice, and have been productive since you've been here, your deportation will be deferred.

 

It's not currently existent, but there's reason to think that in the future DACA will be expanded based on what our friends on the left claim to be their values. As you said, it sent the message that people who came to the country as children should be allowed to stay, if that is what you believe, wouldn't you still want that 10 years from now? If so, you'd expand the dates to let those who came here in the past few years stay.

Basically that's what they are banking on and that's why they keep sending their children here, it's like being able to throw an anchor baby from central or south America. You would be able to get all the benefits of chain migration without having to risk everyone making the trip to the US. If one kid doesn't make it, send another. Eventually one will get in and all you need is one.

 

That's just a pretty big "if". I don't really know that's the reason for the rise in unaccompanied minors

 

Well of course you can't acknowledge that obvious fact because then you'd have to criticize DACA and that was an Obama plan so you have no choice but to blindly defend it. It's also not much of an "if", if you state that people who came here as children should be allowed to stay and that news gets to central and south America....I mean what do you expect? They hear that if their kids make it in, they'll get to stay and eventually be able to bring everyone with them.

By all means though, try to come up with another reason for the massive increase in unaccompanied minors that starts right when a DACA program started to be discussed and has continued to this day.

 

I did not vote for Obama in 2012. I don't care about defending him. DACA, however, makes sense. Having a flaw also wouldn't make it horrible.

You claim that it's the obvious reason for the increase doesn't make it so. I am more inclined to believe that the reasons would be internal conditions in their origin nation.

 

It's pointless to engage people as stupid as blade. He has no ability to see things that are painfully obvious to the rest of world, and while DACA is playing a role so is Obama's C&R policy of prosecuting illegal border crossings. It's interesting that if asylum was the real reason, Mexico would have to take them.

 

I don't think he's stupid, just far too biased to see beyond it.

I'm not really against DACA to be honest, I just wish they'd secure the border before doing something like that. Stop the inflow of illegals and then you can have a full on path to citizenship for all illegals here for all I care.

 

Is that playing a role in the near historic low rates of illegal immigration?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rder-creep-up-remain-historic-lows/580846002/
http://www.businessinsider.com/border-crossings-arrests-trump-historic-low-data-charts-2018-4
https://slate.com/news-and-politics...re-is-no-invasion-at-the-southern-border.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...n-data-says-otherwise/?utm_term=.7467ab5fb283

Well, if that's what's keeping it near historic lows then we should all be delighted.

 

How do you stablize those countries?

Can we start by decriminalizing drugs/mar1juana?

This would significantly cut the money of the local drug czars

Rocket River

 

Big picture, these countries are violent because they have governments and economies that are very weak due to Cold War meddling by the United States. To take just Guatemala for an example, they had a coup in 1954, engineered in part by the CIA because the leftist democracy they had was embarked on land reform and nationalizing property owned by US companies, much like what had happened in Mexico in the 1930s and in Cuba in the 1960s. The coup was followed by 35 years of civil war, with death squads and massacres and assassinations committed to suppress the indigenous peoples. There is a railroad network in Guatemala -- I saw the main station which is now a museum -- and none of it works because it was constantly sabotaged during the civil war. They are in a bit of a better place now. They signed a peace agreement in 1996. But there is still lots of government corruption. Just a couple of years ago they elected an anti-government outsider but he might be corrupt as well. But what might have been. The US government was very keen in the mid-20th-century in protecting the colonial practices of our corporations. What they did in Guatemala is the same thing they did in much of Central America. What if we had just let those plantations go and let the democratically-elected socialists just do their thing. Maybe there would be economic failures. But that's got to be better than 35 years of fighting and atrocities. They have multiple generations of people who couldn't get proper education because of the civil war, couldn't start businesses or build up wealth. It's been 20 years now but even that period is handicapped by corruption that was born of the war. Contrast with Costa Rica, which disbanded its military altogether after a 1948 failed coup and has not had trouble since. The CIA never toppled their government. Now they are the crown jewel of Central America, with a good economy and a well-educated populace. They don't have the murder rates of their neighbors and they don't produce as many immigrants coming to the US. The blame for the problem we have now with the strength of the drug cartels, Central American violence, and refugees ultimately rests with our own history. United Fruit was making outsized profits by exploiting the poor of Central America; when the people took back control of their countries, the CIA came in as the heavies for the shareholders of United Fruit and oppressed all these people to protect profits (and to stop communism, lol). Now, we're paying for it. You can't engage in crimes like these and not expect the impacts to boomerang back on you. What you reap is what you sow.

And what we're doing now is not a mature reckoning with the troubles we've started. We made a big ole mess and now just want to wall off the contaminated area. If all these countries could be strong and stable like Costa Rica, it would be a benefit to the US -- they wouldn't have problems that spill over the border, and they could be a market, an economic partner, and a cultural partner. They need democracy, economic investment, civil investment, rule of law, and to fight corruption. It would actually benefit us in the long-term to put some money into nation building in Central America. But our president sees that as other countries taking advantage of us. It is, in fact, his mode of thinking that had us using the CIA to screw up all these other countries in the first place.

 

#PostMoreLikeJuanValdez
#LessCoheteIsMore

 

I wish people understood. The best way to stop illegal immigration & drug violence isn't to make matters worse for them. We also have to avoid just throwing money at them. We also need to avoid just throwing money at the problem that these questionable governments squander. We need to partner with them in a way that leads them to success because their success will be ours as well.

 

Must be all that Cold War meddling. Maybe they need more NAFTA.