Egyptians resist Morsi; US-supported military to step in on Morsi's side

I dominate your thoughts and control your emotions.

 

This is one of the few instances where the President can show the world he has some proper balls. This is also one of the few instances where I can actually agree with the likes of basso and bigtexxx. Backing Morsi would be a moral error in judgement by the President.

 

Fascinating how this thread started with Mathloom b****ing that the "US-supported military" would support Morsi, and how they would crush the protests with their US-made weapons and training. Not only did that not happen, but both in the original revolution and this latest uprising, that US-supported military has consistently taken the side of the people over corrupt leadership. But somehow, no matter how the facts unfold, everything is the fault of the US.

They say that when God agrees with all of your views, you've made him in your own image. Sounds like that's what Mathloom is doing - starts with a conclusion and then contort the reality to meet his mythical viewpoint.

 

Where, exactly, has Obama backed Morsi here? Publicly, the US has been mostly silent. In the back channels, from what we know, they've asked Morsi to accept the various demands of the protestors as well as call early elections - basically, create a temporary government until a new one can be elected. They have asked the military not to have a coup. How, exactly, is this seen as backing Morsi when the result would be kicking his government out of power?

 

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>A machine gunner just opened fire towards my car while driving. There is a street war in Dokki now. <a href="https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Egypt&amp;src=hash">#Egypt</a> [PS: I'm fine]</p>&mdash; Amr ElGabry (@AmrElGabry) <a href="https://twitter.com/AmrElGabry/statuses/352228441552195585">July 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
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ask the folks in Tahrir Square. they seem quite certain he's not on their side.

 

Based on what? Because you've seen a few pictures from amongst millions of demonstrators?

 

what's your evidence that refutes those signs?

remember, we're debating how Egyptians view the admin.

 

The official position of the US and what we know has been communicated to the Egyptian President and military.

Since when? I thought we were debating whether the US is backing Morsi? The question that I asked, and that you quoted in your response, was this:

Where, exactly, has Obama backed Morsi here?

Where in my question does it imply that we're looking at whether Egyptians think we're backing Morsi instead of whether we actually are doing so?

 

Morsi was elected by the people, but maybe they do not like him any longer. I bet all the threats are hot-air.

 

This is the kind of victimization mentality that I have frequently brought up regarding the Middle East. Strictly from US interests Mubarak would've been the best choice and but at the time many in Egypt and on here were saying the US was behind pro-Mubarak forces and cited the exact same aid that was cited by Mathloom at the beginning of this thread. the US stepped aside and did basically nothing when Mubarak was ousted.

The US never wanted a Muslim Brotherhood President and Obama cautioned against rewriting the Egyptian Constitution to be more Islamist but the US did basically nothing to stop the Egyptian election process or Constitutional rewrite process. Now people are accusing the US of supporting Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood even though it is clear that the supposedly puppet Egyptian military wants Morsi out.

 

I wouldn't count on the military threats being hot air. One thing it seems like the military wants is stability and they were willing to go along with Morsi when it looked like he could provide it. That isn't the case anymore.

Unfortunately for Egypt I get the feeling that there might be a return to military dictatorship and possibly a cycle of civilian and military rule for the next decade or so.

 

Mathloom is a prime example for this, but he is hardly unique in that.

It's basically what probably a large majority thinks there: Everything bad that happens is somehow the fault of the USA and Israel and the Jews. Every frickin' cab driver of Middle Eastern or (Muslim) South Asian decent I ever talk to thinks that way. Even Americans I have met in Cairo and Dubai who have lived there for a while think the same way, because all the media propagates this myth as well.

It's a terrible flaw and a lack of self-reflection.

 

A stable dictatorship would be much better for the people than where they are heading now, which is chaos and fundamentalism. They are on the path to becoming Pakistan. And I would rather live in Egypt under Mubarak than in current Pakistan.

 

I think this is probably partly true in a lot of countries with dictators, especially when said dictators are propped up by powerful outside influences. These people had never really controlled their own destiny before, and so its easy to blame others. Even here in the US where we do control our own destiny, people on the left think everything bad is the right's fault and vice-versa. Every election lost is the result of cheating by the other side; bills passed by the opposition are all corrupt, etc. It seems be part of human nature.

A taste of freedom has clearly changed at least some of the mentality over there. I didn't think there was any way they would rise up again this quickly, but it seems clear that people were inspired by their last successful overthrow, and they are much less willing to tolerate corruption/etc. As long as they have the military in their corner (regardless of their internal corruption), it seems like the people will be able to peacefully make their voice heard. Transition to democracy is a long and ugly road, especially in a place that has never had it before, but it seems like the idea of the people controlling their own future and having a say in their government is really starting to take root there. Protests and constant overthrows are not the ideal route, but it's a start while they try to find a legal system that works for their country.

 

If you do the research you'll find that once a military coup has happened in a state it's rarely a 1 step peaceful handover of power to democratic rule after that. It's usually cycles and the democratic process fails with additional military coups coming after that.

The military in these countries is not the same as in the United States and people don't realize that. They are their own entity with the preservation of the military 1st and the state 2nd on their agenda.

So your post is spot on.

 

To follow up on Major, Justyank and ATW's posts it's not the US's role to determine what is best for the Egyptians but I don't think a Mubarak style secular military dictatorship is the best thing for Egypt. The troubling cycle of military rule and civilian rule is what we see in Pakistan and we can see how well that is working out for them.

What I fear with Egypt is that if they fall into that cycle it ends up being again that the military is heavy handed and the alternative will continue to be the Muslim Brotherhood so they end up alternating between military and religious domination. My own view is that a lot of what we are seeing now is a necessary growing pain towards building a true democratic civil society. As Major noted having a taste of freedom including relatively free elections is giving the Egyptians the desire to have more. After decades of authoritarian rule where the only well organized opposition was the Muslim Brotherhood it is going to take them awhile.

 

I think this is a great article from Mohamed El-Erian on the situation:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mohamed-a-elerian/what-are-egyptians-up-to_b_3537303.html

What are Egyptians up to Again?


Those who don't pay much attention to Egypt would be forgiven for thinking that the images dominating their television sets these days are simply a replay of the popular revolution that overthrew President Mubarak two and a half years ago. They are not.

What we are watching today is an attempt by a majority of normal Egyptians to reclaim a revolution that has stalled. They are out on the street in order to reset the conditions for success, and to place the country on a more promising and prosperous path.

Make no mistake, these are messy, noisy, uncertain and unpredictable days for Egypt.

The country is in unchartered territory. The economy is under severe pressure. Most institutions are weak. A credible leader is yet to emerge with widespread support. And, to make things worse, there is no play book.

The mood on the street may look joyful but the situation could easily turn violent.

Every Egyptian understands that unity and national reconciliation are essential for navigating the most difficult of all revolutionary pivots - from dismantling the repressive past to building a better future. However, there is disagreement on how this should be achieved.

Some call for a renewed effort under President Mursi, especially since he was democratically elected a year ago. Many others deem his leadership to have failed, due both to over-reach in certain areas and to not delivering on basic economic and social tasks. And all wonder how the Armed Forces will react, especially now that they have given the country's politicians a deadline to get their act together.

Count me among those who do not have a good handle on how Egypt will navigate the next few days and weeks. It is so unpredictable.

Also, I am in no way underestimating the basic challenges facing Egypt in its important quest for new economic, institutional, political and social anchors.

Despite all this short-term uncertainty, I cannot but feel invigorated by an indisputable fact that will serve Egypt well for many years and decades to come - the unquestioned political empowerment and awakening of everyday Egyptian that has occurred over the last 2 ½ years.

Long known as a people easily ruled from the top by repressive regimes, Egyptian citizens are no longer scared, submissive and ambivalent on how they are governed.

Led by a highly engaged and committed youth, Egyptians have overcome the culture of fear that dominated so many aspects of their lives.

Most importantly, they believe they can, and should influence their destiny. And they are not simply talking the talk; they are walking the walk.

Today, much of this energy is dedicated to pressing the reset button on a promising and inspiring revolution that stumbled. Imagine what can - indeed, will - happen when this powerful energy and commitment unite under a common vision for building a better Egypt for current and future generations.

Egypt's short-term future may be highly uncertain and volatile - indeed, subject to unrest and the risk of violence. Its longer-term prospects, however, are much brighter than most people imagine.

Never underestimate what a committed and empowered people can do.

 

Hilarious reply to basso major. didn't you see these pictures i posted? i wonder what sites he got them from?

 

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Muslim Brotherhood spokesman says 'full military coup' under way in Egypt - @BBCNews bbc.in/10zDWgZ