Daryl Morey: Argument could be made for James Harden to be called best offensive player ever

Daryl Morey thinks he's the GOAT pg. Advanced stats pretty much say he is, and Morey just follows the numbers.

 

But how is that possible when he's the #7 best player in the NBA now??????

 

comments like that are including defense.

Morey is making a case for discussing just the offensive side of the game. For instance, Morey probably isn't placing Harden above Hakeem (just yet), and neither would I, but I'm willing to compare offensive effectiveness to Hakeem.

 

[Post was not meant to be taken seriously]

I am fine with Harden not being labeled the number 1 player in the NBA right now. But whoever makes that case is doing it at their own peril.

I will hold Hakeem above Harden until Harden delivers two rings. Until then, he's #2. No shame in that.

 

His best season probably was the best season ever by a PG.

What does that have to do MJ?

 

Kobe's 35ppg season is a total joke compared to Harden's current season. Kobe took 27.2 shots to get his 35.4 points (1.3 points per shot) and Harden is taking 22.1 shots for his 33.6 points (1.52 points per shot).

To put that in perspective, if Kobe took 22.1 shots that season (like Harden this season), he would have averaged only 28.8ppg. That's a pedestrian season for James Harden. In fact, he was averaging 28 more efficiently when people were talking **** about him earlier this season.

That's not all. We're talking about offense, not just scoring. Kobe averaged just 4.5 assists. James Harden is averaging 8.6 assists.

THAT'S NOT ALL. Kobe averaged 41 minutes that season to get his 35. Harden is averaging 37 minutes. If you extrapolated Harden's figures to 41 minutes like Kobe, he would be averaging 37.2ppg.

Never mind that Kobe and the Lakers weren't even contenders (or really trying to be) while Harden is the MVP and trying to win the title. To compare those two seasons is a sign of ignorance more than anything. It's Harden who's legitimately having a historic offensive season, while Kobe is in the conversation.

 

His quote makes for easy ammunition to fire away at Harden, derailing the convo from his game last night to some nefarious topic about GOAT status which no one is claiming.

 

Wouldn't call it a joke. Harden is more efficient, Kobe is more what you call obnoxious and persistent.

 

Yes, but that's largely irrelevant.

Morey is not talking about one season. He is saying there is a case to be made that as offensive players -- Harden > Kobe....flat out.

I agree, it's annoying he said anything to derail that Epic game. It's kind of an Ego thing for Morey to do.

That said, I'm sure Kerr or PJax would do the same thing.

 

You can also look at it more holistically. The rockets have had the most efficient(or one of) offense in the history of the NBA. Do you think it would be even in the top 25 percentile without Harden?

 

Overall, both Assists and Points are troublesome. Even Pace adjusted, Assist should treat three's differently, just like eFG% does.

If you were to make me pick metrics, I'd probably start with Team ORtg while Harden is on the floor. But then stuff like that favors teams loaded with all-stars and multiple HOFers in their prime (like Bird, Magic, Shaq/Kobe, Bulls, GSW and the Heat, and CLE even). But, I'd still like to see that number. What if Harden leads in that stat for past 3 yrs, with his surrounding cast.

All that said, the thing about including something to do with points created is trying to unravel ORtg from the effects of multiple players, and getting something about the effectiveness of Usage into the discussion. Of course, Bird and Magic shouldn't really be docked for being on great teams, nor should Lebron on the Heat or with Kyrie/Love or Durant on GSW.

But if Harden's Team ORtg is higher regardless of teammates, that's hard for Bird/Magic/Lebron/Durant etc to debate. The debate them becomes, "Well, those teams just didn't appreciate the value of Threes like College teams did." or, teams needed better defenders on the court than College, and the pool of 3&D players hadn't matured, yet.

 

It's a joke when compared. Harden's season is in the conversation for a historically great offensive season. There are several people who can put up 35 on 27 with 4.5 assists. Curry, Durant, Lebron, Westbrook, Giannis, Anthony Davis, Kawhi, Embiid, Lillard, etc.

Give ANY of those guys 27 shots, and they will have at least 35 and 4. Give ANY of those guys 22 shots today, and almost none of them would be able to put up 33 and 8.

The difference between excellent and historic may be slim, but that's the sliver of excellence we're talking about.

 

I knew you meant it figuratively.

No doubt, again both are no jokes.

The season will be historic but his numbers with CP3 at the beginning are still what's weighing it down.

The season stats could even be better. October: 28.5 ppg November: 31.3 ppg December: 36.4 January: 44 ppg (for now)

 

Should have clarified, I watched that Shannon/Skip video and they brought up Kobe's 35.

33 and 8 on 22 shots would have been - by far - the best offensive season of Kobe's career.

Are you just affirming that Kobe's 35ppg season is not a joke? Not being a joke is so far from historic, I don't understand how it's relevant here. There are 10 active players today who could put up those Kobe numbers if they had the green light. Those players are not jokes and their current seasons are not jokes. But none of that stuff is in the conversation we're talking about.

Those two seasons don't belong in the same conversation, unless it's the "none of them are jokes" conversation. Agreed?

 

Friend, you put it in the conversation. I just said Kobe's more of a chucker but he is no joke because he can shoot you out of games and into games.

When you talk about Kobe and Westbrook you can't be talking about efficiency but there are things they bring to the table otherwise nobody would talk about them.

Kobe was instrumental to at least 3 of his championships.

 

I didn't put other things in the conversation. Just talking about best offensive player in history. In that conversation, you can't remove efficiency.

If we were talking about clutchness, you can remove efficiency.

If we're talking about overall game, we can talk about Kobe's mid range.

If we're talking about raw talent, we can talk about Westbrook.

If we're talking about winning, we can talk about Kobe's rings.

Those are all different subjects/threads.

But when we're talking about purely the best offensive player ever, Harden is in that conversation, and none of those guys are. Best offensive player includes how many points you get out of a shot, how many you create, and how much (volume) of both those things you do. Harden's current numbers would be the best offensive season in Kobe or Westbrook's careers.

 

Hakeem. The Dream Shake is one of the greatest offensive moves ever developed.

 

Was just about to comment the same thing. The folks that needs to grow up are the ones who don't watch Rockets "boring" bball but continue to make judgment.