1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Cut Carlos Gomez.

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by underrated015, Aug 8, 2016.

?

Who is most responsible for Gomez debacle?

Poll closed Oct 29, 2016.
  1. 5

    18.5%
  2. Luhnow

    3.7%
  3. Hinch

    7.4%
  4. Hitting Coach

    44.4%
  5. Moneyball aggregate offense approach

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Hell if I know but what a disaster

    44.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Major

    Major Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 1999
    Messages:
    41,430
    Likes Received:
    15,860
    Same question for you that I asked MadMax. The team has an equal record and better stats in the other 140 games than the Rangers. If you're the GM, how do you improve the team specifically to beat a single team? Statistically, the Astros already have the better team and it doesn't matter at all, apparently - so what types of changes address this problem?
     
  2. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    33,400
    Likes Received:
    24,431
    Astros just need to add an .800+ OPS bat and hopefully a starter and they should improve against everyone.

    Better health would be nice and Keuchel needs to be ~3.00 ERA.
     
  3. SWTsig

    SWTsig Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    13,947
    Likes Received:
    3,551
    The same way we finally got over the sonics... Trade for Charles Barkley. Duh.
     
    mikol13 likes this.
  4. CometsWin

    CometsWin Breaker Breaker One Nine

    Joined:
    May 15, 2000
    Messages:
    28,028
    Likes Received:
    13,046
    I think it stems from a couple of things, the biggest one is Hinch's poor leadership qualities. A baseball team often reflects the leadership style of its manager. Bannister is a tough no nonsense guy who also adopts analytics and the Rangers are a cohesive, tough guy unit with veteran players that will throw at you and bully you if you let them. Throughout the season they get unexpected production from guys, Andrus and Desmond this year particularly. Hinch is an egghead analytics guy who thinks being professor baseball, aggregate offense and aggregate pitching, wins over the course of a season. They'll get completely outplayed in critical games and then the aggregate will show up and they'll stomp the Twins.

    It's apparent to me that Bannister and the Rangers took the Astros out psychologically last year in that scuffle. Bannister totally intimidated Hinch on the field that day, everyone saw it, and the teams have played like that ever since, further taking on the personas of their managers.

    The issue the last two years against the Rangers is mental. We have a team of players who are either young, haven't won anywhere, don't have an extended record of high performance, or aren't those strong clubhouse presences like an Adrian Beltre is for the Rangers who ticks all those boxes.

    I think you get past this in a couple of ways. One, you hope Correa, Bregman, Springer, McCullers, and this really young core of borderline all-stars grow up really fast. Two, you add a borderline all-star player who ticks those four boxes of experience, performance, winning, and clubhouse presence to diminish Hinch's leadership role on the team. Three, you have to stop being bullied. The first time a Ranger throws at an Astros there should be a huge brawl. You can't ignore the results on the field, you can't ignore the way the Astros have lost games every which way, and if you can't beat the bully on the scoreboard you don't just sit back and say you'll have to get them next time ala Hinch. At some point you either play better or you have to be the bully. This isn't just an antiseptic analytical game. These are men and masculine psychology plays a role in performance.
     
    jim1961 and J.R. like this.
  5. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,191
    Likes Received:
    14,420
    And you accuse me of making outlandish claims that can never be proven?

    A+ analysis there...
     
  6. snowconeman22

    snowconeman22 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,059
    Likes Received:
    16,011
    ^^
    While I don't agree with everything comets said , there is definitely a psychological aspect to the game .

    Stats and analysis is great , but at the end of the day you have to remember that you are analyzing people . And variation can be explained by more than just randomness .

    I think where there is smoke there is fire . Around baseball , there have been a lot of negative comments about lunhow and hinch . I understand part of that is maybe they are trying to change the status quo and there is resistance. But the easier explanation is that those guys have some poor attributes .

    Hinch may be cool , calm , and collected , but he appears to display those to such a degree that ignorance and submissiveness are a legitimate interpretation of his behaviors and strategies .
     
  7. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,191
    Likes Received:
    14,420
    Care to expand on that? There was certainly some angst towards Luhnow from other GM's around the league (to be expected at times)... and from all insider accounts, these current players love playing for Hinch.
     
    The Beard likes this.
  8. snowconeman22

    snowconeman22 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2008
    Messages:
    14,059
    Likes Received:
    16,011
    The part about hinch was a quote from some anonymous baseball operations guy saying that hinch was one of the worst managers he's ever evaluated .
     
  9. Nick

    Nick Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    48,191
    Likes Received:
    14,420
    Sure. Have to presume this front office also did their own homework on him.

    And it still says nothing about the psyche of the players or his ability to motivate them to "masculine" levels (per the discussion at hand). By all accounts, he's fostered a decent environment of clubhouse chemistry, and has helped guide young guys through some tough times.

    By no means is he the best tactician or in game strategist... but if we really think a manager makes that huge of a difference in the overall mentality of a team, and that mentality translates into discernible wins/losses, then it's hard to say Hinch is a negative for this clubhouse.
     
  10. Yaosthirdleg

    Yaosthirdleg Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    697
    Bregman at third, Correa at short, and Altuve at second are locks. Springer is most likely ticketed for right again. What about the other outfield spots? Catcher? First? DH? pitching?


    So what do you guys do? The starting pitching market in free agency is dreadful except for Hellickson and Rich Hill. Hill is old and made of glass while Hellickson is just okay. Cashner as well as Liriano will be free agents also but would be more of reclamation projects than anything else. Will the Red Sox decline their option on Buchholz? He would be a somewhat interesting option. But the 'Stros will need to trade if they want a legit TOR guy. I think Sale is a long shot. Archer and Quintana are more likely. I would even take someone like Teheran. Any other suggestions? Go after lesser guys like Robbie Ray, Pineda, Andriese, and Ervin Santana while also letting guys like Feliz, Paulino, Devenski, and Martes battle for a spot in the rotation as well? McCullers and Keuchel are question marks healthwise. Keuchel less so than McCullers. McHugh is a lock for the rotation imo. Musgrove isn't a lock but I like him. Fiers is an okay BOR guy but not a lock.

    What do they do in the outfield? Free agent outfielders include Cespedes, Fowler, Desmond, Reddick, Saunders, and Bautista. I would also throw in Lourdes Gurriel. Do you keep Springer in right along with Marisnick in center and then add one of these guys in left? Or just play Yuli in left? Trade for Braun and put him in left? Trade for Inciarte? Bring in someone like Jon Jay? Could Justin Turner play left?

    What do they do at first? Give Reed another shot? Play Yuli there? Sign Encarnacion or Morales and put them there? Trumbo? Valbuena? Justin Turner? Napoli? Moss? Moreland? Pearce? Lind? Pedro Alvarez? Trade for Braun and put him at first? Votto? Freddie Freeman? Jose Abreu?

    Catcher? It looks like they'll re-sign Castro to a relatively small deal and pair him with Gattis again. Hopefully Garrett Stubbs will be a guy to emerge here.

    DH? Just rotate guys but have it be Gattis a decent chunk of the time? Yuli? Sign guys like Bautista, Morales, Encarnacion, or Beltran to be the sole DH? Others?

    Bullpen? Go for a big fish like Chapman, Melancon, or Jansen?
     
  11. Hey Now!

    Hey Now! Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2000
    Messages:
    14,193
    Likes Received:
    4,870
    I'm not waving off the Rangers' dominance as "luck" - they're a better team. But the record discrepancies don't align with much larger sample sizes.

    The Astros are 160-126 against the rest of MLB since '15, including a 30-24 against playoff teams. They're 10-28 against the Rangers.

    In one-run games, the Astros are 47-42 against the rest of MLB since '15. They're 2-12 against the Rangers.

    The Rangers are better; but, statistically, they should not be +18 and +10 better in those two categories, based on how well the Astros have done in much larger sample sizes over the same time period. Luck has played a role, for sure - the Rangers have been lucky. But that's true of most successful teams.

    But this is beyond luck; it's inexplicable. The good news, hopefully, is that the records should regress - and for it to even up, it'll mean the astros dominating for a large stretch. Hopefully.
     
    Houstunna and Yaosthirdleg like this.
  12. zeeshan2

    zeeshan2 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    48,652
    Likes Received:
    52,174
    Gomez couldn't make that awesome catch all year for us?
     
  13. PhiSlammaJamma

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 1999
    Messages:
    28,763
    Likes Received:
    7,050
    Hinch took a bunch of kids and turned them into a playoff team. He ok. I don't think they have underachieved. They are slightly ahead of schedule with limited talent/depth. That's an achievement. Now get him some pitchers. And let's see if he can go next level.
     
    #2113 PhiSlammaJamma, Oct 6, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
    mikol13 likes this.
  14. underrated015

    underrated015 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    944
    Congrats to Carlos gomez for winning the division title with your new favorite team you want to magically hit for. Now you can sit at home after being swept and watch the rest of the playoffs.
     
  15. Zacatecas

    Zacatecas Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    1,520
    Likes Received:
    104
    Gomez pissed his opportunity with the Astros. He was a huge reason Astros missed the playoffs, the Astros kept trotting him out there, and he didn't care. But after getting released, he magically gets a chip on his shoulder, and goes on a good run.

    Gomez earned himself a better contract, with his play with the Rangers.
     
  16. Houstunna

    Houstunna The Most Unbiased Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    33,400
    Likes Received:
    24,431
    Stop hating on the Rangers for making Gomez feel more "free".
     
  17. Malaya

    Malaya Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2016
    Messages:
    526
    Likes Received:
    310
    It's just a hot streak. Sooner or later he'll revert to the mean.
     
  18. lnchan

    lnchan Sugar Land Leonard

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2010
    Messages:
    8,591
    Likes Received:
    11,357
    McHugh v Gomez -- most underrated feud ever...
    ...think it started in Houston?
     
  19. underrated015

    underrated015 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    944
    Yea when he misplayed the flyball and colins reaction. Hes still trash just like the rangers this season.
     
  20. marks0223

    marks0223 2017 and 2022 World Series Champions
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    11,237
    Likes Received:
    15,943
    Damn, this thread got to 106 pages last year. The hate is understandably strong for this dbag.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now