Again, what does believing in Jesus mean? Praising a name or practicing the life of Jesus? "HE" is a way, not just a name. It is the practice, the way of Jesus, that offers salvation, not a name. This practice, understanding, and love can be found in different religious traditions. It is not unique to Christianity and to Christians.
I think the question here is, what does it mean to know Christ? We know that there are many who know a lot about him, but who did not know him. Matt 7 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' And I’m sure you’ve had many experiences with people who’ve had huge born again experiences without knowing very much about Jesus at all. This is a common experience in fact. Many non-Christians find God in crisis situations. They may knew very little about Jesus before but in their time of need they humbled themselves in their souls and reached out to him, and God answered. In the Bible Jesus met a number of people who didn’t know him before the meeting and yet came to know him and become Christians within minutes. So, what does it mean to know Jesus? Here’s a further twist. Abraham was justified by faith, not works: Romans 4 Abraham Justified by Faith 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Abraham was justified by faith, but this is the New Covenant! We are told that the only way this is possible is by faith through grace made possible by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, and yet Abraham was justified by faith before Christ walked the earth. Since God transcends time I don’t have a problem with this, but again it poses the question of how much one needs to know about Jesus. I certainly agree that one has to know him, but IMO what that means is that one has to know him in the depths of their soul. They don’t need to know many if any details of his life. That said, knowing him isn’t the end of the story. We are called and compelled to know more and to grow and seek community with other Christians and to help each other grow in faith and be the salt and light of the world, so IMO after one becomes a Christian they begin a journey and an exploration that will, I believe, lead them to the Bible and to Christian community. In fact before you become a Christian the Bible won’t even make much sense to you, but parts of it might and might serve as a gateway to the internal process of coming to know Christ.
Yes and no. I was raised in a nominally Christian family that religiously went to Church twice a year. Essentially I grew up in a humanist household with no spirituality at all. As far as I know I’m the only Christian in my immediate family. Some of my siblings and their spouses are professed atheists and others are nominally Christian but they are not what I would call spiritual. They are essentially humanists.
grizzled, that's not what i meant. from wikipedia: Judeo-Christian (also spelled Judaeo-Christian) is a term used to describe the body of concepts and values which are thought to be held in common by Christianity and Judaism, and typically considered a fundamental basis for Western legal codes and moral values.
I'm sorry, but this is a load of crap so all non-Christians are actually Christians and only need to be in a "foxhole" to discover their unknown love of Jesus? a very arrogent and condescending statement
Well, in that sense all of us in the western world were brought up in a Judeo-Christian tradition, right? So in that sense, yes. If you’re asking if my family would have had any problems with me becoming a Buddhist or a Muslim then the answer would be no. In fact many of them would have thought that was cool, a lot cooler than me being a Christian.
that's not the question or the point. i'm glad that you have had a spiritual awakening, that you've found jesus and that it makes you feel good. my point is that because of the tradition you grew up in it was likely and logical to choose jesus over mohamed or buddha etc. others, who don't grow up in the same tradition may find that their spiritual awakening leads them elswhere. this is also pretty much what meowgi and others are saying.
That’s a reasonable question to ask, but that’s not what I believe led me to Christianity. I think that although there are many similarities between the religions there are differences too. Ultimately, though, all I have to offer is my experience, so that’s what I’m giving you. You decide for yourself whether any of it resonates with you or not. It’s not my purpose to force anything on you, only to share my experience.
you said this is implying that knowing (Xian) god in an innate knowledge that only requires a desire to unlock I call it b.s. you are only Christians because you were born at a certain place at a certain time in history (i.e. Social reasons), if you were born in North America in the year 1000 BC, you would be worshipping somethign different and be equally convinced of the validity of those beliefs
Note the line before the bolded part. “Many non-Christians find God in crisis situations.” I didn’t say all or even most, but the fact is that this is how it happens for many of us. This is our experience. Max, otoh, would tell you a different story of how he became a Christian. So I’m not taking anything away from you here. I’m just sharing the experience of many (not all) Christians. That said I do believe that this is true, but I’m sensing that your image of the Christian God may not be the same as mine. But I don’t agree with this. This is not my opinion. My sense of who God is didn’t come from the world I grew up in. It is in fact quite different from my family’s beliefs and those of the various social groups I was in before I became a Christian. It took me a long time to find a community I was comfortable with, in fact, and this was partially because I didn’t know where to look because I was an outsider.
The question I have is, once that spiritual awakening begins to happen, is it incompatible with other religions? When this happened to me and I began to explore what it was about I came to the belief/conviction that it was what was being described in the Bible. I understand from my own and other’s experiences that it’s entirely possible to not know much about the Bible or the details of Jesus life when your spiritual transformation takes place, so in this context it’s clear to me that one could have come to know Jesus internally as you say and yet in their lives be continuing with the traditions of their family and culture. What I suspect, however, is that this won’t feed one’s need for spiritual growth and that eventually one will be drawn to look beyond those traditions to learn more about this spirituality that they discovered internally. This was, in a general way, my personal experience anyway.[/QUOTE] That awakening or experience is probably only a step. To experience it once isn't necessarily to know it. But I agree that there is a good chance it will lead to searching. It is just a step on the path, and not the path itself. If more Christians continuously heaped on the selfless love the way Mother Teresa did then those that encountered it and continued on with their other traditions would eventually be surrounded by such deeds. I believe it would overpower most with Jesus' message. But I don't think Christians can really worry about nor should they try and control others. I think conversions that happen because of talk are on a more superficial level than those that come as result of being affected, and experiencing the practice of Jesus' message. In my limited experience those seem to be the deepest. I think I am agreeing with what you are saying, but stopped short of continuing the progression in my original post.
For me the first step was massively transformational. That really doesn’t give it enough emphasis. It was far far and away the most important and fundamentally altering event of my life, but it was not the end of the transformation. It is what makes you a Christian, but as a Christian you are still called to grow and learn and live out your faith in more and more realized and refined ways. This is a process that many churches don’t talk about much, unfortunately. Mine doesn’t do it as much as I wish they would either, but I can appreciate that it must be hard to address all the wants and needs of a congregation of people at different stages in their growth process. Beautifully said. We can’t control others. That’s not within our ability and it’s not what we’re called to do. I agree that the living examples are the most powerful ways of communicating the message, and they can be very very powerful indeed. Words do work but they are most successful when they relate to something real in another person’s life. People sharing their stories can be very powerful, especially when a listener can identify with what’s being said and can see the transformation that has occurred the in speaker’s life. Rote learning is by definition ineffective, because it doesn’t change the heart. Since you raised the very important topic of love I will shamelessly exploit this opportunity to post one of my favourite passages of the Bible, which is also one of the most important. 1 Corinthians 13 Love 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=13&version=31
I think words are important, but I think if the first experience is like the one we talked about before, words are good to grow, solidify, answer some of the many questions that always pop up. I have been moved by spoke words about Christianity by others, and made a pledge to change things, or live my life a certain way, only to eventually fall prey to some of the same habits. Witnessing deeds, or experiencing them combined with words were the only thing that made the kind of profound changes that mattered most. But I certainly don't believe that because it happened for me that way, that is the way it does or has to happen for anyone else. I don't mean to diminish the import of discussion and words, just that I am not sure how deep the affect of those are unless they are also accompanied by deeds performed with a selfless loving spirit. Very cool biblical selection also. I love that section as well.
