Pardon my ignorance, didn't Duncan have a lot of trouble scoring points in the Olympics when international teams played zone exclusively?
Just curious, how would you guys rank Dream against all the great centers in the history? From my impression, he would no doubt be ranked No.1 on this forum. But if you ask general NBA fans, I suspect at least Chamberlain, Russell and Jabbar would be ahead of him. And a lot of those would also think if Jordan didn't take the leave Houston probably won't win those two titles either. People here worship Dream.
Question. If you could pick Yao or Duncan, who would you pick? Is Duncan as good as Dream. No. Dream>Duncan>Yao
Not only was the zone not implemented to stop post play, there is a specific rule to prevent double teaming the big man before he receives the ball in the post. The offensive three-second rule. I think most people on this board would actually consider Dream no higer than third on the all-time center list behind Chamberlain and Jabbar. Some would rank him behind Russell.
I never said which era was "superior". I said that the NBA in the 80s played worse defense. The Rockets in Akeem's second year on average gave up 109 points a game. If you look at how many points the Rockets last year gave up against the top offensive teams like the Mavs and the Kings, they still don't give up as much. Granted, the counter argument is that the pacing of JVG style is a crawl compared to back then. But that only enhances the argument for Yao. Since he's able to score at such a high level despite the low number of opportunities per game. Also, are you of the opinion that Hakeem dominated this superior era? I began watching basketball in 92. I never got the impression that Hakeem was a dominating force then. The year I truly felt Hakeem became a superstar was the 93 season, the year we lost to the Sonics. Actually, the popular reason for why we could never beat the Sonics was because they use the zone. And quite frankly, it's true. For all the talk of how Najera messes up Yao, it's amazing how few people remember the way Sam Perkins and Ervin Johnson always manage to mess up Hakeem. Hakeem always had trouble passing out of that quasi-zone Seattle played.
I just don't understand what you mean by him beating double and triple teams as you claim he did from day 1. maybe you could clarify this. In my opinion nobody can beat a double or triple team defense surrounding one player on the athletic or lone skills of that player alone. When you say beating doubles and triple team Do you mean 2 or 3 players (swarming) surrounding hakeem and him breaking out of that net thru some form of magical leaping ability to get a dunk over all three or two palyers swarming him? or some "Flash" like dribbling to beat all those players to get a good shot at the basket? That sounds extremely far fetched. Shaq can't even beat double or triple teams by himself (all alone) and I do consider him the greatest center. He has to either kick it out (to a teamate) and get a return pass (dependant on the skills of his teamates) while getting better positioning for an offensive score or in most cases he has to kick it out to a teamate for a three which is why he and Kobe played so well off each other and why a center needs a guard like that. No Center can beat a triple or double by himself that's why Yao and the team had so much trouble last year. when the center kicks it out becus of the double or triple on him the team and him expects the guys to make the shot. That's one of the reasons we got T-Mac. No way any player in the league (past or present) that can beat triples or doubles all by themselves let alone do it game in and game out for all the regular season and playoffs as you claim. BTW The only time I saw Yao do it was that game last year in Atlanta where he scored in (overtime I think), the 41 point game. He got a jumpshot off with one player in front of him and one right to his side both trying to block his shot, and he only beat the double team that time becus of his height relative to the defenders doubling him.
Yes, Olajuwon did dominate at an early age in a way that Yao can only dream of. I saw them both play live and on tv, there's simply no comparison.
How is it possible that the basketball God was abled to bless Houston with so many great centers that we are enjoying this discussion! Other teams/cities may go through their entire lifetime without a single decent center let alone having multiple Hall of Famers like Elvin, Dream and possibly Yao in the future. Everyday when I wake up, I am soooo glad to be living in Houston although our air quality is a litlle suspect!
I have watched early Hakeem, prime Hakeem, and now I am watching early Yao. I am a fan of both. I want Yao to succed just as Hakeem did. But Yao needs more help than Hakeem did. Yao just does not have the quickness, agility, and ferocity of early Hakeem. One vital stat that was left out in Meh's original post was the number of steals that the two had. Hakeem in his first year had 1.21 and then in his second year 1.97 steals per game. He has avraged pretty close to 2 steals per game for a number of years. Yao in his first 2 years is close to .25 steals per game. This does not work against Yao as much as it does in favor of Hakeem. Centers are not supposed to be steal leaders. But Hakeem is in top 10 in All- Time list in Steals. That is remarkable. He is also #1 in all time blocked shot list. It is quiet apparent that Yao, despite his more enormous frame, will never average or come close to Hakeem's block shot or steal numbers. Hakeem's rebounding was also much better than Yao's in their first 2 seasons. Yao is slow to react and jump. Hakeem was a quick leaper. What does this show? Well, to me, it says that hakeem was a far superior defender that Yao. Even in his first 2 seasons, Hakeem was very agressive and could shut down people or alter other teams's offensive plan. When it comes to defense, Yao has a long ways to go before he can come close to Hakeem. When it comes to offense, from what I have seen so far, Yao has a better overall understanding and abilities if their first 2 seasons are comapred. But yao is missing the agressiveness and the will to just take over games. Even when Hakeem game was not refined early in his career, he always tried to impose his will on the game. Also, because Hakeem was still raw, you could say, he had more potential. And he fulfilled those potentials. Yao on the other hand has played organized basketball for a longer period of time, so his potential might not be as high. He will improve slowly and steadily but, quiet honestly, I would be surprised if he just explodes all of a sudden. One last thing not to be overlooked is the will to win the game and the ability to impose that will. For the longest time, people had debated over who was the better center; Hakeem or Robinson. That question was answered in the 94-95 playoff series. Robinson was soft, and Hakeem was agressive, and that's all that mattered in the end. If Yao wants to be named as one of the all time best, he will have to become agressive. If both Hakeem and Yao entered the league at the same time, and based on their performance in their 1st 2 years I was to pick one of them, I would pick Hakeem in a heartbeat. Hakeem was dominating even after his first 2 years. Yao, so far, is just a very good player. He has a lot of help though from Mcgrady so he will do just fine. But sometimes I do wonder how mcuh havoc Rockets would create if Hakeem in his early years had Tmac by his side.
To look at offensive proficiency when seen in relative terms, let's look at field goal percentage on a season by season basis. Yao was #7 last season, but he was really #2 among primary go-to guys. The guys in between Shaq at #1 and Yao at #7 were Mark Blount, Dampier, Jamison, Nene, and Boozer. In Hakeem's MVP season, he was #10. Shaq was #1. However, Hakeem was really a #4 among primary go-to players with Kemp and Webber being the only guys between #1 and #10. In Hakeem's 2nd season, he was #24 in field goal percentage. It's probably in the top 15 if you take into account just the primary go-to players. To look at stats on an absolute basis without taking into account the change in defensive rules and strategies is like viewing Barry Bonds' single season HR record with the same bias as viewing Babe Ruth's 60 homeruns. Things change. This is why the baseball Hall of Fame may not automatically induct guys like Fred McGriff or Rafael Palmiero. 500 homeruns now isn't nearly the same as 500 homeruns back then. This means Yao's progression as a basketball player in terms of offense is not exactly turtle-like, but a regression this season for Yao will be disappointing. He still needs to be a top 10 field goal percentage guy since it will force defenses to continue double teaming him to force the lower percentage perimeter guys to take jumpshots.
http://www.basketballreference.com The above site provided the stats I used. One stat that takes into account overall value (AV in the website) to a team had Yao at #8 for the 2003-2004 season. Hakeem in his 2nd year was #8 also. The guys at #1 for those years were Kevin Garnett and Larry Bird respectively.
Hey meh, I'll ask you again. Are you saying that the 2004 Kings and Mavs (gave up 97.8 and 100 pts per game) play better defense than the 1986 Rockets (gave up gave up 109 pts per game), Celtics or Lakers? If you haven't seen the 1986 Rockets play, I suggest you catch a few games. Then, get back to us. Also catch a few Dennis Johnson/Robert Parish games from the Celtics. And maybe a few Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, AC Green, James Worthy Laker games. Or maybe a few Dennis Rodman/Rick Mahorn/Joe Dumars Piston games. Dumars was the best Jordan defender, ever!
It does sound far fetched. But he did it, and thats what made Hakeem so amazing. Early in his career, he would just out-leap and power down dunks over 2-3 defenders. Later in his career, he would dream shake 2-3 people do death and spin in the lane for a jump hook or hit his classic fadeaway. He also did things like, chase PGs down from midcourt and block, what looked like, an uncontested layup. Hakeem could do it all.
Excellent observation. Yao is good. I am glad he is in Houston. He doesn't come close to comparing to Hakeem. DB
Yeah, Akeem used to do that. I started watching NBA in 1986, Akeem's rookie season. In that famous 49 point, 25 rebound overtime game against the Sonics, Bernie Bickerstaff threw double, triple, and even quadruple teams at Akeem, and still couldn't stop him. Akeem didn't trust his teammates during his early years in the league, and was somewhat selfish, and would force shots up against double and triple teams. It used to frustrate me, but he made a high percentage of them. He could consistently beat group defense with a "Dream-shake" and fadeaway, spin-move, or jump hook. I've never seen a quicker big man in my lifetime. It wasn't until Rudy T became coach that Akeem became Hakeem and started sharing the ball more.
The opening line in the Chronicle recap of that game is one of my all time favorites: It came down to a battle of Akeem vs. a team. One man cannot beat 12, but Akeem Olajuwon almost did. It also encapsulates, quite vividly, Hakeem as an NBA player.
Since patlabor1 didn't believe me, here is the first part of the recap, courtesy of Alan Truex (the Rockets beat writer at the time): SEATTLE - It came down to a battle of Akeem vs. a team. One man cannot beat 12, but Akeem Olajuwon almost did. In the end, the Seattle SuperSonics outlasted the Houston SuperOlajuwon 128-125 in a double-overtime, triple-excitement playoff game that started Thursday night and ended Friday morning, shortly after midnight Pacific time, three hours and 25 minutes after it began. It was a showcase for Akeem Olajuwon , who rang up the sort of numbers that rarely have been seen since the days of Wilt Chamberlain. The Rockets center had 53 minutes, 25 rebounds, 6 blocked shots and 49 points. What he did was carry the Rockets on his narrow but powerful shoulders against a triple-teaming defense.
Did you save the newspaper? I seem to remember a quote from some Sonic saying "We threw everything but the kitchen sink at him, and if we had that we would have thrown it too."
