No contest. Ming and Dream are such different players both mentally and physically that comparing them is largely meaningless. Both are unique in their own way. Hakeem's cat-like quickness, explosiveness, competitative nature, boundless energy are qualities that would make Ming unstoppable, but, unfortunately, he does not have them. Dream wasn't 7'6'' and wasn't the world's greatest passer. Let's move on to another subject. No one really compares with Hakeem.
Rookie year Yao(02-03) 13.5 ppg(14.4% of team scoring) 8.2 rpg(18.7% of team rebounding) 1.8 bpg(29.8% of team blocks) 50% shooting(13% higher than team average) Team Record: 43-39 Ewing(85-86) 20.0 ppg(20.3% of team scoring) 9.0 rpg(22.7% of team rebounding) 2.1 bpg(33.4% of team blocks) 47.4% shooting(3.0% higher than team average) Team Record: 23-59 2nd years Yao(03-04) 17.5 ppg(19.4% of team scoring) 9.0 rpg(21.1% of team rebounding) 1.9 bpg(35% of team blocks) 52.2% shooting(18% higher than team average) Team record: 45-37 Ewing(86-87) 21.5 ppg(20.7% of team scoring) 8.8 rpg(22.1% of team rebounding) 2.3 bpg(37.1% of team blocks) 50.3% shooting(6.1% higher than team average) Team record: 24-58
I watched some old footage at times of the old games. They DON'T play as much defense. You'll never see the rotating help defensive schemes back in those days to nearly the extent that you do now. The game is played differently back then. Plain and simple. Now, I don't discount Olajuwon's performance in the 86 playoffs, because it was phenomenal. But it was only one playoff series. Richard Hamilton and Chauncey Billups both had a great playoff run, yet no one would consider either one all that good. I won't disagree that as of right now, Hakeem has a big edge on Yao in terms of playoff ability because of his stamina. But in terms of simple offensive basketball ability, they are fairly close. Now we'll have to wait and see just how well Yao can play in the playoffs this year after his offseason training.
Although it's probably a little late to say this, but I apologize if people took offense to me doing this little comparison with Hakeem. I actually meant it as a way to show that Yao's progression is fairly good, that he's developing quite well even when compared to one of the best at his position in history. It wasn't meant to say that one's better than the other. My original post made it quite clear that Olajuwon was a better player for the first two years. I was just pleasantly surprised that the results were all that close.
Actually, there were 4 playoff series that year. And the next year, against Seattle in the playoffs, Hakeem dropped 50 pts, 25 rebs and threw a whole bunch of steals and blocks on top of that. Stats don't tell the whole story regardless. All you have to do is watch both of them. Hakeem was dominant from Day 1. He was agressive and tried to tear the opponent's heart out from Day 1. Hakeem beat double and triple teams from Day 1. Yao is behind the curve, but we are all rooting for him to catch up to that curve, dominate and bring Houston some more titles like Hakeem did.
IF you are talking about the mid-eighties...(not the 60's or 70's)... Ask yourself what would happen if a team sent *rotating help defense* against the 1986 Celtics, Sixers or Rockets. What would they do? It's called pass, cutting, movment and ball rotation. They'd adjust. *Knowing HOW* to do this was key. The Pistons of last year did a great job doing this. Even though they had a bunch of good players -- not great super stars -- that believed in Brown's system and learned it inside and out. Play as a team. And keep passing until you get your shot (or layup/dunk). They reminded me of the ACC. It was great. It's even better if you can have superstar(s) that *want* to play this way. This is one of the reason that Yao has garnered so much attention from the media. He wants to play as a team, not individually -- even though we want him to be more aggressive. This is something new from of todays player (even from the old TMac or Kobe). By the way, the Mavs and Kings play very good team ball (keep an eye on the Suns this year with Nash). But they have little chance of winning a title without improvement their defense at least to a reasonable level.
meh, What Yao does have over Hakeem is fundamentals (early in his career) and a shooting/passing touch reminiscent of a guard. Yao is more Walton-like, than Hakeem like, in that respect.
But as I've said many times, Hakeem played in an era where defense was very supbar compared to the NBA today. So his "domination" doesn't mean as much. Duncan's stats are pretty similar to the early years Dream. Yet the Spurs have won 2 championships and contends perenially. Olajuwon couldn't lead the Rockets to anything but mediocrity following Sampson's injury, even though his raw stats were ridiculously good by today's standard. Yao's stats may not look sexy, but he played on a ballclub that moved at a very slow pace(89 ppg vs. 111 ppg). Given the opportunities, his 17.5 ppgm at 52% shooting no less, is a tremendous boost to his team. And that's not even counting all the open 3s JJ and Cat managed to get from his presence.
If you truly believe that the defensive intensity in the 80s is the same as today, then I can't argue with that. We just have to agree to disagree on this issue. That said, it may show that Hakeem's a better player. But it doesn't show that he's more valuable. Not having Dream, Ewing, Robinson, Mourning, etc. to play against didn't make Shaq any less valuable to the Lakers. And it certainly isn't going to make Yao less valuable in the future.
It's not that. It's that you refuse to acknowledge that today's players react/adjust to defenses differently than the teams of the 80's and early 90's. It's the difference of what they *knew* back then and what today's players (collectively) *don't know* today (although they have improved a bit in the last 3 years). And because you refuse to acknowledge these factors, you automatically *think* that defenses were soooooooo bad back then. To you, it's the ONLY way to explain why players like Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Drexler and Hakeem scored so "easily." That's silly. The absence team oriented offense from many of the star players of the last 10 years, does not automatically mean a team (of today) plays "better" defense -- even though there are some gained benefits in modern training of today. You have to look at both sides of the equation; the offense AND the defense. Then, compare that to today's offense (iso and team) and defense (individual and team). P.S. Ever seen Akeem score on a double-team? That was common. Ever seen him score in a triple-team? He's done it many times (sometimes called a ball-hog for his efforts).
I was going to bring this up also. Someone said it earlier, if you saw Hakeem in the mid eighties, you wouldn’t even make the comparison. Yao will be a very good player, maybe great, but its really not fair to him to compare him to Dream. This also goes to show how Dream really didn’t get the accolades he deserved outside of Houston. As great as McGrady is, no one would compare him to Jordan, and that’s actually a closer comparison. It should be the same way with Dream and Yao.
First, this is a gross misrepresentation of 80's basketball. The game was unquestionably different. Defenses were less sophisticated, BUT... The league was infinitely better. At one time you had Jordan, Magic, Bird, Stockton, K. Malone, M. Malone, Olajuwon, Parrish, McHale, Erving, Jabbar, Worthy, Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Robinson, Drexler, Wilkins, Walton...I can't even go on. There are too many to list here. There were fewer teams and players entered the league out of four-year colleges. Shooting percentages averaged 10 points higher for jump shooting. Passing and team play were mixed with unreal athletic gifs. It was the golden era of professional basketball. Today, we have a league where there are guys starting for teams that would be hard pressed to make the 12th man in 1985-86. There is NO comparison in terms of talent. Most importantly when trying to compare Hakeem's playing days vs. Yao's is to compare the big men on the floor. On any given night, Hakeem faced Jabbar, Eton, Robinson, Parrish, Robinson, Lanier, Laimbeer and on and on. It was a league dominated by big men who could all play basketball. Even the second tier guys like Walton, Schayes, Klein, Cartright, the Jones brothers and so on were usually skilled on the defensive side of the ball. Big men had to be in order to make a roster. They were usually the enforcers for their teams. Today, there is really only one equal in terms of center dominance and that is Shaq. Most of the rest are underqualified or playing out of position and don't merit mention in the same breath as some of the hall-of-famers listed above. I can understand the argument that Yao possesses more pure offensive skills at this point in his career than Hakeem did early on. I can understand the argument that defenses are more complex and sophisticated today. But, to suggest that Hakeem's dominance doesn't mean as much is a complete and total invalidation of one of the greatest eras in professional sports not to mention a demonstration of a clear lack of knowledge of basketball history.
IMHO The biggest difference is the change in rules 80's defense compared to today's You guys go back and forth comparing defensive intensity from the 80's to today's. They both are very intense but are very different because of because of the rules. Nowadays, a player can zone and play the passing lanes hard. This makes offensive movement and rotation a LOT more difficult and makes defenses look more intense. And in that way, they are. But the 80's defenses were more intense on a man-to-man level, and you'll see that if you watch some of the old games. Yao compared to Hakeem Lemme ask you this- how would Yao perform if zone was illegal? How well would he play if the defense was not allowed to double-team him before he got the ball? How well would he be able to find the open man if the defense wasn't allowed to zone a passing lane and if every defender had to guard someone? You young-uns might not remember: in the old days, if a defender was not guarding a player and was just waiting around to intercept a pass, he'd get whistled for illegal D. Yao would rip Najera to pieces if it was only Najera that he had to deal with, and wasn't getting sandwiched between two defenders in the post before he can even get a touch. But that's not the world he lives in (though Hakeem had that luxury). Let's reverse that- How would Hakeem have done if we applied today's rules on him? How well would he have performed if he had two guys all over him before he could get the ball? How well would he have done if his outbound passes to Kenny Smith were constantly intercepted by defenders who were zoning the passing lanes? I was there. I know what it was like in the old days. They'd get it to Hakeem. Defenders would double, leaving a man open somewhere. The other Rockets would be at the 3pt line, pulling the defense out (remember - rules stated that all defenders HAD to guard an offensive player) and giving dream a LOT of room. Hakeem would either beat the double or find the open man (and if they didn't double Hakeem, well, that's just not smart). It was just that cut-and-dry. How well would Yao perform in that scenario? That style is impossible now, due to current rules. Conclusion I'm not saying Hakeem wasn't greater. And I'm not saying that Yao isn't as good as Hakeem. What I'm saying is, Hakeem probably would have struggled more against today's rules, and Yao probably would be more successful against the defense of the 80's. But since those scenarios don't exist, we can't really compare them. We can never really know. -- droxford
The zone argument doesn't work either. You can’t name one big man who has been affected adversely by the zone. The zone wasn’t implemented to make it easier to guard dominant big men. It was implemented in order to promote shooting from the perimeter. Whether there is a zone or not, Hakeem was still more effective against the double team. Yao’s not. You guys act like Hakeem was guarded one on one. The only thing a zone allows you to do against a big man now vs. pre-zone NBA is to play closer to the player you want to double team while he doesn’t have the ball and to double team quicker. But Duncan’s numbers haven’t changed since the zone, Shaq’s, or Garnett’s. That is not a good argument.
Great post. The only thing I would add was that it was implemented not just to promot shooting from the perimeter, but to encourage teams to get up and down the floor more quickly and open up lanes for cutters to the basket. But, other than that, right on the money.
