I wanted to compare the worst teams in the league to get an idea if all these teams will be perpetually bad, or if they are in fact building for a better future. The results in my opinion don't look good for the home town team. i broke it down by considering guys that will be forces in the league four to five years down the road. i chose not to include guys that will retire or will no longer be a factor within that frame (i.e. hakeem, starks, strickland, richmond, etc.) Bulls: future cornerstones: brand, artest talented role players: none busts: haven't had a chance, first time to have a legit first round pick in years Grizzlies: future cornerstones: abdul-rahim talented role players: dickerson, bibby, harrington busts: reeves Warriors: future cornerstones: jamison talented role players: dampier (if healthy), cummings, caffey busts: trading among others, webber, hardaway, mullin, richmond, hardaway, and gugliotta and getting zero in return Wizards: future cornerstones: none talented role players: jahadi white, howard (yes, he's no more), rip hamilton busts: trading webber and wallace in order to keep howard one of the worst calls of the decade Clippers: future cornerstones: odom, taylor talented role players: nesby, hudson, skinner, kandi busts: need to loosen the wallet to stop the talent from always jumping ship Rockets: future cornerstones: francis talented role players: cato, 'los, anderson busts: mobley (i know it's hard to call a second round pick a bust, but he gets far too much press for his limited skills), drew looking from this perspective it seems that the rockets, a team used to success, will be swimming with the bottom feeders for a while. both the clippers and the grizzlies have more talent to work with, while the bulls have a great deal of cap space to manuver. Who would have thought the rocks would sink so far so fast. the reason, not soley injuries, but some questionable personnal decisions of the past year. some guys the rocks have traded/waived as you are aware: horry, cassell, dickerson, harrington, thorpe, maxwell, mack, maloney. of the guys we got in return for these people, only francis remains. makes you think.
for the sake of completeness I should also add Nellie's bunch. Dallas: future cornerstones: finley talented role players: nowitski, trent, strickland busts: bradley, nelson in any capacity (GM, coach, peanut vendor) they, too, seem to have comparable building blocks to the rocks
Interesting post, Chris. Of course, the first two names were for Charles and I think the waived ones could be justified. I can't remember the deal with Otis. Could you refresh my memory. Hopefully, the key with these teams is past success of the club. With the exception of Chicago, those other clubs haven't had much success in a long time. Good organizations have a knack for not staying down too long. All personnel moves are arguable. Let's hope the Rocks can recover in the not-too-distant future.
chrisjent, nice eval. I just want to interject a few things... Bulls: I think they will get something in return for Kukoc via a trade. This somebody will be at least a good role player. busts: owner & mgmt Grizzlies: I think Bibby can elevate into "cornerstone" status. Clippers: I am not sold on Taylor. For a guy who is this big, I expect him to be a 8+ rebounder. He's been hovering around 4.5 thru out his carreer. I think he will be a "good roll player". Did you forget Derek Anderson? I think he can be a good "roll player" too. Dallas: bust: Nash and owner (Perot). Did anyone catch this about Perot? Perot used team to broker deals It's mentioned at the bottom of the article. If this is true, the Mav fans really got shafted. If we are evaluating from the point of 4 or 5 years from now, we will also have some cap room after Dream retires. I don't think Los' will be as effective at that time, he would be around 32 (I hope I'm wrong here). I still think Rudy & the gang are good at evaluating talents. I think they will pick up some more gems within these 4 or 5 years. IMHO, a team does not need more than 2 superstars (diminishing return), one maybe even be sufficient as long as we have supporting casts. I do believe Francis will become that superstar. And now that the Wiz have Jordan, maybe things will turn around for them. I don't think he can do any worst. [This message has been edited by MoonBus (edited January 14, 2000).]
ChrisJent, You have 2 players named Hardaway mentioned in your analysis of the Warriors. Explain how they got nothing for Penny Hardaway. Mango
Chrisjent, I think you are approaching the question in the wrong fashion. While the building blocks of teams are important and somewhat telling, I think you overly discount the role of management which probably will have more of an impact than the players. What did Dallas accomplish with the three Js? What did the Wizards accomplish with Webber? The problem was not the talent or promise of the players, but their utilization (or lack thereof) of that talent by the team. So, to revisit the teams: Bulls: Brand and Artest are turning out to be good picks. And despite the bust claim of MoonBus, I actually think Chicago knows what it is doing. They have been demonized by Pippen and Jordan and don't have too favorable a reputation as a result. This gamble with salary-cap space may not work out (probably will only poorly work), but I think they'll manage to rise to respectability nevertheless. Grizzlies: It was the coach. I was saying that a year ago. All the same, I don't think they have the front-office talent to get any better than say the Cavs over the last decade. Warriors: Their front-office has proved itself to be none too competent and their present state is a perfect example. Wizards: Front office is probably worse than the Warriors, since they're willing to pay the money and still suck. I guess we'll see if Jordan can do for them what Riley did for the Heat. Clippers: Look good right now. Though I wouldn't call Taylor a cornerstone. They may eventually become 8th seed playoff contenders, but won't get better than that as they will find a way to screw up again. Rockets: First of all, I wouldn't call Mobley or Drew a bust. Regardless, Francis is the building block, and we'll get another in the draft. Don't worry about the Rockets. Ever since Alexander has owned the team and Rudy has run it, it has been successful. And, after this temporary lull, we'll be back. Mavs: I think they will continue in mediocrity under Cuban. Where Perot may not have cared enough, I think Cuban may care too much. I'm already getting the feeling that he will interfere too much in the decision-making of the team and thereby shoot himself in the foot.
Drew in my opinion has developed into an average backup PG, and better than anyone since Cassell. I haven't seen enough consistent play for Anderson to be considered a solid role player. I think Kenny thomas will be a good role player of the bench if not a starter in the near future. Mango, GS trade A Hardaway+1st rd pick for webber. They then traded Webber for D Marshall and a worst 1st rd pick. In essence, GS got Marshal for Penny.
Joe Joe, GS obtained the rights to Webber for the rights to Penny and multiple future picks. http://www.nba.com/history/draft9394.html Webber was eventually traded to the Bullets/Wizards for Tom G and picks. Several months later, GS traded Tom G for D Marshall from the TWolves. Mango
a few responses: i did not factor in ownership and or management (with the exception of dallas, which can never be overlooked). i just looked at the current players on the floor. insofar as the clips, i did forget anderson. i apoligize, i was forming this off the top of my head and he slipped my mind. he is a force, and i thank you for the correction. in displaying the dismissal of both penny and tim hardaway, i was focusing not on the specific trade (in which i'm aware the warriors got the rights to web. and a few first rounders) but on the current end result which equals nothing in return. insofar as the rockets, i don't think we can take many players results at face value. when a team is as depleted as the rockets many players are forced to step up simply because there are not weapons left. witness pig stepping in and almost averaging a double-double. point being, on a average or above-average team, mobley would not be given the chance to launch 15 shots to obtain his 14.3 pts. per game. neither would drew get twenty minutes a contest. this is strictly my view. the point i was hoping to make, a few mistakes withstanding, is that the rockets must make good with their pick this year, and make wise personnal moves (see signing pip, long-term maloney, long-term cato, trading future for barkley, little to show for three 1st rd. picks last year, etc.) the next few offseasons so they do not fall into the same rut as the perennial losers of the NBA. Just as the Clips and Griz are beginning to see the daylight, the rocks are at a teetering points which will decide if they too will see the right side of .500 for years to come. have a good one.
chrisjent, In your original post about GS, it definitely comes across as "busts: trading among others, webber, hardaway, mullin, richmond, hardaway, and gugliotta and getting zero in return" Trading the rights to Penny and draft picks ended up eventually with a lemon in D Marshall. Webber and Tom G were just steps on the path to Marshall and shouldn't have been included in that list that you gave. I took your post exactly as stated by you. Mango
chrisjent: Sorry man. I pulled a response that I always hate getting myself: Zero-ing in on one statement without addressing the entire post. nice UID btw.
Mobley is not a bust. How can a player who can come out and score 20+ points on any given night be considered a bust. And I'm not talking about Muggsy Bogues scoring 23. Mobley has proven that he is very capable of scoring 20 points when his shot is falling. He is also a very good FT shooter and an emotional leader on the team. Also, don't forget to take into account what he did last year. He was a rookie and started nearly every game (74% of them). Plus, he only turned the ball over 1.6 times last year. Would you call Vernon Maxwell a bust simply because he can't seem to shoot 40% for a season? Sure, Mobley's defense isn't quite at the level of Mad Max's, but give him time. ------------------ I have a dream.........his name's Hakeem.
As far as the comment about Cat not getting as many shots and Drew not getting playing time if this team wasn't depleted, well, I beg to differ. Cat was the 6th man, 1st off the bench from the get-go and was considered to be the main offensive weapon of the second unit. As for Drew getting minutes, none of the backcourt is on the IR. He is simply being developed. To label him as a bust is not only premature but shortsighted as well. The dude can flat out shoot the rock. This will be so valuable when we get the low post threat back into our game plan. As a matter of fact, Drew's and Cat's stock will only rise when they get a little breathing room allowed by a respected presence in the paint.(offensively and defensively) As far as the other teams, I like what Vancouver is doing. They have a good young nucleus and, with the exception of Big Continent, have been drafting pretty well. (I know the Francis thing didn't work, but they did get Thella and Dickerson out of it) They will have a pretty good pick this year as well. They just need a real coach. I like what the Clips are doing. It is too bad that their stigma keeps them from keeping all of their talent. Dallas has a bunch of talent. This Nowitzki kid looks like he may develop into another Van Horn (he is pretty young, he would be scoring 30+ a night in college right now). Somehow, I think they will still manage to suck.
Without getting into a numbers game: Any player, second-rounder or not, who can draw a double-team from 3 point range by just holding the ball, is not a bust. You are too easily dismissing the value of drawing double teams is to a moving offense. I take comments like Mobley is a bust to be trying to express opinion to the point of exaggeration. John Starks had as many haters as Mobley will. I'm getting used to it.
heypartner, All Cat needs is some more maturity (better judgement) in his game. He has most of the other pieces. There are few perfect players in the league. Name a player and someone on this BBS can cite some area they are lacking in. Mango
heypartner, thanks, i'm glad somebody else has the same reaction at times mango, i think you are nitpicking and missing the big picture which is GS has little, if any talent, to show for the SUMMATION OF ALL trades within the last 5 years
The point about Mobley and Drew being on average teams, and therefore getting more opportunities, is valid. But this is still the NBA. Just because we aren't in the upper ranks of teams doesn't mean the guys we are playing against don't want to win. Not having Dream, Charles, etc. means that Mobley has the ball in his hands more, true, but he still has to do something with it. And that's while drawing double teams and being the focus of the opposition's defense. Mobley's average would probably not be up there if we had a loaded roster, true, but then again neither would Francis', Los', Cato's, etc. He has a lot to learn yet, but in no way can I agree he is a bust.
chrisjent, ROTFL, Actually, I had called in a year ago to a local talk radio show expressing the same theme as you in that the Warriors have had soem quality talent pass through the GS and just never decided what to do with it. Others to add to your list: Chris Gatling Spree Joe Smith Yes, I agree wholeheartedly that the GS organization has been poorly run for years. Another example of GS incompetence. Portland ran PJ off and GS welcomed him with a sweet contract. Mango
