[ClutchFans] Rockets to begin season with Beverley, Asik as starters; Jeremy Lin off bench

You would think with all the obvious Lin haters here that you all would find somewhere else to talk about your playing time conspiracy theories and which player is preventing Lin from being a superstar today.

 

Aha, so you do admit it.

 

Tone it down ClutchFans, all this writing is giving me a headache

 

Definitely, it's obvious anyone here prior to 2012 is a Lin hater. You folks should leave immediately. Don't give the haters the satisfaction of tormenting you by disrespecting Jeremy Lin, the hero we don't deserve.

 

Lol, nah I'll stay. It's cool to watch u write long essays about something so unimportant.

 

I wish it were so unimportant that we didn't have a new thread every other day talking about the imagined disrespect and poor treatment of Jeremy Lin by coaches and teammates.

 

can someone suck my dick its been a couple days and im READY TO BUST!

jokesssssssssss

Spoiler

but not joking

 

Oh I don't think it is imagined. But that's just my opinion. There is so much evidence that supports this also. For me, there's no point even in arguing. Just point it out with sarcasm. If you guys jump, at least I get a kick out of it. Lol

 

Yeah, we know you don't think it's imagined. That's why you annoy hordes of posters here that complain constantly about how this obsession is ruining the forum for posters that have been Rockets fans for decades. You seem oblivious to this trend.

 

I wish there was a way we could clone torocan.

 

<a href="http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,ppg,238_248" target='_blank'>Jeremy Lin vs. Patrick Beverley</a>

Per Game
<table width='100%' class='inner1'><tr bgcolor='#FF99CC'><td>#</td><td>Player</td><td>Team</td><td>Pos</td><td title='Games Played'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,gp,238_248' target='_blank'>G</a></td><td title='Minutes Per Game'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,mpg,238_248' target='_blank'>MPG</a></td><td title='Field Goal Percentage'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,fg,238_248' target='_blank'>FG%</a></td><td title='3 Points Field Goal Percentage'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,f3p,238_248' target='_blank'>3P%</a></td><td title='Free Throw Percentage'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,ft,238_248' target='_blank'>FT%</a></td><td title='Offensive Rebounds'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,off,238_248' target='_blank'>OFF</a></td><td title='Defensive Rebounds'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,def,238_248' target='_blank'>DEF</a></td><td title='Rebounds'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,rpg,238_248' target='_blank'>RPG</a></td><td title='Assists'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,apg,238_248' target='_blank'>APG</a></td><td title='Steals'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,spg,238_248' target='_blank'>SPG</a></td><td title='Blocks'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,bpg,238_248' target='_blank'>BPG</a></td><td title='Turnovers'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,turnover,238_248' target='_blank'>TO</a></td><td title='Personal Fouls'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,pf,238_248' target='_blank'>PF</a></td><td title='Points'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,pg,ppg,238_248' target='_blank'>PPG</a></td></tr><tr onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='#CECECE';" onMouseOut="this.style.backgroundColor='#FFFFFF';"><td>1</td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,player,248' target='_blank'>Jeremy Lin</a></td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,team,17' target='_blank'>HOU</a></td><td>G</td><td>13</td><td>31.7</td><td>51.1</td><td>41.2</td><td>79.1</td><td>0.2</td><td>2.3</td><td>2.5</td><td>4.8</td><td>1.2</td><td>0.5</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.5</td><td>16.3</td></tr><tr onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='#CECECE';" onMouseOut="this.style.backgroundColor='#FFFFFF';"><td>2</td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,player,238'>Patrick Beverley</a></td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,team,17' target='_blank'>HOU</a></td><td>G</td><td>10</td><td>29.1</td><td>41.3</td><td>33.3</td><td>84.6</td><td>1.7</td><td>2.3</td><td>4.0</td><td>2.2</td><td>1.3</td><td>0.5</td><td>1.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>9.3</td></tr></table>
Advance
<table width='100%' class='inner1'><tr bgcolor='#FF99CC'><td>#</td><td>Player</td><td>Team</td><td>Pos</td><td title='Games Played'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,advance,gp,238_248' target='_blank'>G</a></td><td title='Efficiency Rating: (PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK − ((FGA − FGM) + (FTA − FTM) + TO))'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,advance,eff,238_248' target='_blank'>EFF</a></td><td title='Field Goals Attempted Per Game'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,advance,fgapg,238_248' target='_blank'>FGApg</a></td><td title='True Shooting Percentage'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,advance,ts,238_248' target='_blank'>TS%</a></td><td title='Assist Ratio'><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,compare,compare,advance,ast,238_248' target='_blank'>AST</a></td></tr><tr onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='#CECECE';" onMouseOut="this.style.backgroundColor='#FFFFFF';"><td>1</td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,player,248' target='_blank'>Jeremy Lin</a></td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,team,17' target='_blank'>HOU</a></td><td>G</td><td>13</td><td>16.15</td><td>10.4</td><td>0.644</td><td>23.6</td></tr><tr onmouseover="this.style.backgroundColor='#CECECE';" onMouseOut="this.style.backgroundColor='#FFFFFF';"><td>2</td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,player,238'>Patrick Beverley</a></td><td><a href='http://ns.twhappy.com/?select=14,team,17' target='_blank'>HOU</a></td><td>G</td><td>10</td><td>11.00</td><td>8.0</td><td>0.542</td><td>18.1</td></tr></table>

 

Didn't Galileo annoy the Italian and Cathloic population because he said that the earth circles the sun? So if we have some valid arguments for what we believe to be true, we annoy the hell out of you so that you ask people in a public forum to leave? Not saying that the game of basketball is as important as Galileo, but you get the analogy.

And besides, those who don't believe that Mchale disrespects Lin, their best supporting evidence is that you guys are crazy, and they're just LOFs.

So many of the "LOFs" here has so much supporting evidence, say Torocan for example, and you guys don't seem to address it. But hey, it's just a sports forum. Lighten up.

 

I don't think Torocan said anything about disrespect.

If you have an opinion, it's fine to express it, but don't call out on others.

Show some respect for others, please.

 

This is interesting...

The Rockets are winless when Bev gets more minutes than Lin.

BOOM another can of worms opened.

 

let's view it with a different angle. if it's Caldron, or Rubio, or Mike Conley, or George Hill, or even freaking Ramond Fatlton vs berverley the majority would choose the former, rather than the one who should stay on the bench.

it's not about Lin vs beverley, it's about a normal playmaking+tempo control PG vs a mediocre defense+ mediocre spot up shooting 3 "PG" who is not better than former. clearly the former is the no brainer choice, if someone says otherwise, he should be one dont believe in normal playmaking+tempo control PGs, by all basketball wisdom, this guy must be a fool. PG is the best guy to translate coach's tactics onto the court, he should be the one that coach heavily rely on to keep the team in control. however everything happening in rocket contradict all these normal BBALL knowledge. so my conclusion is, it must be a fool running this team.

 

Torocon is one of the more highly biased LOFs on here. His "analysis" is to treat "advanced stats" like a box score and basically argue over semantics without any regard of the actual game played.

 

Supporting evidence LOL.

Torocan writes so much bull**** and misinterprets statistics so badly it is comical at this point. He will take anything as long as it suggests something Pro Lin and try to discredit anything else.

The last 20 pages he has been spouting off nonsense conclusions based on various data over a nine game sample size. It does not matter how many different metrics you used if your sample of data is that low.

At least three pages of it was garbage based purely on the highly flawed +/- stat....again, through only 9 games.

I'll let you in on a little secret about how to spot someone who knows what they are talking about. They always always always qualify their data and they never claim that a theory is right because data supports it.

 

Since you're directly addressing me, by definition statistics aren't biased in and of themselves.

Interpretations can be biased, and inherently nearly always are biased. This isn't a flaw in statistics, they are a flaw in human nature. So am I biased? Of course I am. I have my own particular belief systems, and those will color my expectations and interpretations of data.

That said, I do make conscious efforts to logically deconstruct my own analysis in an attempt to filter out my own biases.

And your assumption that I have no regard for how the actual game of basketball is played is the weakest sort of argument. You assume you have some knowledge of my understanding of basketball and then directly attack it. In other words you're using an attack of character in an attempt to undermine the credibility of the source of the information rather than the information itself.

Statistics are purely measurements of data and an attempt to place that data within a framework of understanding. Agree or disagree with the conclusions, the data is the data. The models are the models. And neither the data is fabricated, nor were the models fabricated by me. They are in fact statistical models crafted and utilized by statistical minds far more accomplished than mine.

If you find a flaw in the logic of the analysis, or have data to provide a counterpoint to an analysis I present, then feel free to do so. However, to willfully disregard the value of statistical data and models flies in the face of the millions of dollars put forth by 30 NBA teams including the Houston Rockets, an industry wide leader and pioneer in the use of data gathering and advanced statistical data in the operation and management of an NBA team.

I don't disagree that Statistics are not the only thing and should be placed within the context of what happens on the court. However, if you disagree with a conclusion then perhaps you should utilize this Discussion forum to express your own conclusions and logic. And should you not be willing to undertake such an effort, then feel free to NOT read the posts or NOT reply at all.

A debate or discussion is not a one way street. By it's very nature, sometimes the only way to discern grains of truth is through challenging the assumptions and logic of opposing view points, ie, to place one's own opinions in the crucible of public scrutiny in order to distill the essence of what is meaningful.

At it's heart, this is the fundamental basis of scientific method. And it is through scientific method that advances have been made through virtually every social and scientific discipline in the modern world, including in the world of Sports.

If data and statistics hold so little value then why bother tracking player and team statistics at all? Why count rebounds? Blocks? Assists and points on an individual player basis? Why be concerned about minutes played and efficiency?

Advanced statistics and the field of analytics is just the natural progression of the box score, a tool by which teams, coaches, players and fans advance their understanding of the game as well as to quantitatively measure and judge not only the results of previous actions, but the possible consequences of future actions.

I would never argue that the eye test and understanding of motion on the court holds no value, however like any tool one's eyes are limited. They are far from omniscient, and the human mind is constructed in a way that we are often ignorant of our own blind spots.

Our memory is neither comprehensive or reliable. And our ability to analyze complex interactions without the recording and reviewing of data is extremely limited.

Players like Shane Battier understand this. He is well known for reviewing the data and advanced statistics on every player he is assigned to defend.

The World Champion Mavericks understand this. They used advanced statistics to determine line up changes during their final series with the Heat.

The Spurs understand this. They use advance statistics as part of their development and player assessment tools throughout the season.

And the Houston Rockets understand this, as they use advanced statistics to find high value players that are overlooked by old school scouts in the draft as well as through trades.

What I find interesting is that the same criticism you are leveling towards me is the exact same criticism that has been leveled for years against the likes of Daryl Morey and Sam Hinkie --- that they are numbers guys who do not consider the action on the court, that their advanced statistics are useless because they do not capture every nuance and subtlety of the game. And that their endless quest to quantify and analyze increasingly subtle aspects of the game is a pointless chase of that which can not be quantified.

However, what those who are opposed to the use of advanced statistics do not realize is that Analytics was never meant to replace observation. It is however another form of observation. It was not meant to replace human thought processes, but to provide different avenues of thinking about a particular problem.

The difference between those who support the use of advanced analytics and those who rely exclusively on the "eye test" is that one is content with the tools that "god gave them", and the other is willing to use the tools that are made by men as well.

Which leads us back to the original discussion, is it best to utilize Lin in the starting minutes or not? That is the essence of the first question.

The second question is whether the Rockets are better served if they have Lin lead the reserve minutes than Beverley?

The two are separate questions which deserve a meaningful and constructive discussion, free of those who wish Lin to play the opening minutes out of personal preference as well as those who wish Lin to not play the opening minutes out of personal preference.

So, if you have a hypothesis, then feel free to put it forth. Present your logical argument. Present your supporting data. Otherwise, your comments do nothing constructive for the understanding of these particular players, or how they may best benefit the Rockets.

Let the discussion be free of discussions of pride or judgements without logical and quantifiable basis. Let it be free ranging and filled with differing viewpoints. And let it be free of the emotions stoked by one type of fans distaste of another type of fan.

LOF and LOH are just meaningless labels. Irrelevant to the discussion, and irrelevant to the determination of meaningful analysis and conclusions.

Those who wish to sling invectives and labels have other places to do this. This thread is here to discuss what should ultimately be a basketball question.

After all, this is a Basketball forum, isn't it?

 

Dude - give him a break. You don't agree with him. I get it. At least, he's pretty level-headed and doesn't personally insult people.

The opinion that Lin is a better player than Bev does not qualify someone as some sort of fanboy.