[ClutchFans] Rockets to begin season with Beverley, Asik as starters; Jeremy Lin off bench

I don't think you have an agenda, I just feel people might be confusing correlation with causation.

 

To be fair, the thread started as a train wreck too.

Within the context of the thread, saying he has done an outstanding job seems safe. The secret agendas are mostly confined to the team or coaches, although you might be seen as a paid lacky if you imply the good job is a result of being 6th man. (And, by the way, if you can get paid for saying what you would have said anyway on an internet forum...)

The central arguments are
a) is it a sacrifice at all (assuming he is better than bev)
b) was his play worse than bev
c) could the same goals have been accomplished without moving him
d) would the team be better (bigger point differential) with him starting

These are all argued rationally and irrationally. If you pick and choose, there is interesting reading to be had.

 

I'd say we have that part down. LOL.

 

Just chiming in.

This is a Rockets forum full of Rockets fans. I guarantee you that NO ONE in Clutchfans (minus the trolls) want to trash Lin or see him fail. It is in the Rockets' interest that Lin plays well while fitting into the system. What is in the Rockets' best interest is in the true fans' best interest.

There have been times last season that the true Rockets' fans have been frustrated with Lin and felt he was not a good fit here with Harden. voicing those frustrations is a VERY different thing to trashing and wanting him to fail. It's COMPLETELY different.

I hate when people accuse those of trashing Lin because they hate him. It's tunnel vision just looking at everything through the eyes of Lin, and not the team. Do you honestly think people who love the Rockets simply want to see Lin fail, and play bad? Of course not.

I love Lin and was a big fan of his during Linsanity, even though I disliked the Knicks, but at the end of the day I am a Rockets fan and will call it as I see it if I feel Lin doesn't fit the team.

In the case of this season, he DOES fit the team, and is doing a lot to help us win. Whether he should start or be 6th man may be a matter of debate, but there is nothing negative about feeling he is better suited off the bench. That's hardly trashing him by clearly saying he is a great player, but saying he shouldn't start.

If things are so black and white that bench players are bad, and starters are good, I guess you would consider James Anderson are clearly better player than Reggie Jackson? Or Ray Allen? Or Jamal Crawford? Or JR Smith?

 

Everyday, I hope and pray Lin fails so hard he has to go back to the D-League.

 

I'm not a part of this argument in particular, but felt like responding.

a) Very good debatable argument in the context of this season's roster. The argument that he is better off the bench (hence no sacrifice) is by going by last season's performance. He is clearly playing better now as a 6th man.
The argument that he should start and his effectiveness is sacrificed on the bench is that he improved in the last few months of the season, and his total season numbers last year are not a good indicator. That plus our roster is very different, and he may fit better in the starting lineup vs last season.

b) Very bad argument or debate not worth having at all. Does it matter if he is better or worse than Bev? Harden is clearly better than Sefolosha, however Sefo was the OKC starter during Harden's years there and they were good enough to make the finals. It's not as black and white as "starting = better, bench = worse".

c) Who knows? Start Lin, or start Bev and see for ourselves. My own argument is that the minutes matter more than who starts. Who starts really is a matter of who fits into the lineup better.

d) This isn't really a separate argument. It ties directly into argument A.


There are arguments for and against him starting, and TBH I'm sitting on the fence here. It depends on what factors I look at that change whether I think he should start or not. 2 factors are:

1. Fit with starting lineup:
If T-Jones becomes the full-time starter, then Lin is the better fit in the starting lineup. Jones spaces the floor for the 2-pronged penetration attack of Lin/Harden, plus more opportunities for pick and roll (Howard and Jones) or pick and pop (Jones). Not to mention Jones' ability to guard 3's mean's we can afford to take out Bev's stifling perimeter defense.

2. The surprisingly effective Lin/Bev combo:
No one has really brought this up. Bev at PG and Lin at SG is a GREAT combo. Bev is a great defender, and Lin is at least a better defender than Harden... especially defending a SG under 6'5" since he can't keep up with the quicker PG's. In this scenario, Harden still must start, as your superstar offensive player. Since Lin can play both guard positions, and Bev can't, it makes sense for Lin to come in off the bench to back up both Harden and Bev. 20 to 25 mins at PG and 10 mins at SG = 30 to 35 mins a game. That is A LOT of minutes.

 

Week 3:
ORtg, DRtg, Net Rtg
Lin : 117, 108, 9
Beverley : 109, 108, 1
Lillard : 117, 108, 9
Calderon : 118, 109, 9
Curry: 116, 100, 16
CP3: 123, 106, 17

 

I think you're confusing bad/good as a measure of how good a player is. I think some LOF people are more concerned with now he is perceived. Let's face it. Being a 6th man/bench player has a negative perception to it.

 

Then they need to get over it.

 

that's the problem you have. whatever you wrote should apply to kings1. he is one who did trash lin supporters just because those supporter have different view from him and argue with him.

 

I really appreciate the way you voiced your opinions.

However, I don’t think anyone can guarantee anything on the Internet, even in Clutchfans. Posters can always claim to be who they are not.

 

you should ask yourself whether all points those posters listed to favor lin to come off bench have merits. lin was a starter. his first half of the last season clearly was affected by his injury. since the allstar, he has played well very as a starter and with harden. if not broken, why change it? it is what a wisdom tells us.

as regarding where offense comes from with our benches, i said again and again the current substitution pattern doesn't support it. with the current pattern, lin plays same amount minutes with the backup no matter he starts or not.

 

Sadly, the narrative outside of the Rockets loyal fans is that Lin 'lost' his starting position to Bev (which is not true). That's why Lin fans have to prove how Lin is better than Bev.

 

There's nothing to prove. It's self-evident.

 

they don't need to prove something that is a fact.

 

oops, sorry, i misread Dakeem1's post...

 

First, all data is incomplete/limited in value. That's why you take as many data points as possible. If you discard all data because the individual data points tell incomplete stories, then you would have no data to work with at all.

Apology accepted, but you should preconceptions and assumptions skew viewpoints, including interpretations of data.

 

Even if he does, he still earns 8 mil a year, has a Harvard degree, and gets any girl he wants, which you could only dream of.

 

I agree!

Yea, none of what you just wrote here is relevant to to anything I said. I have no idea the point you are trying to make, nor do I really care.

I guess you just don't realize or remember what you wrote, so I will quote it in big fat font for you:

I am not sure if this gigantic tornado of bull**** you are writing is trying to hide your terrible original argument, or you are trying to make yourself feel better, or what.

Let me be clear: That statement is what prompted me to call you out.

I am really not interested in how you want to re-write it or change your argument. I am not interested in your multiple data points, your statistical essays, or what have you.

Your original point was garbage and is still garbage. Constantly changing it makes you appear like a biased Lin fan. I am not interested in having any conversation with Lin fans because they are completely and totally irrational.

I am speechless the lengths you are going too in order to be "right".

 

Even if he did fail, which he won't, Lin will always be more successful than you, smarter than you and richer than you.

To put that into perspective, even if you made $100,000 a year you would have to work 80 years to make what Lin makes in a year.

Now shut up & go back to your X-Box before your mom calls you for dinner time.