http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1600343 Thursday, August 21, 2003 The Pistons and Warriors are close to completing a trade that would send forward Cliff Robinson to Golden State for veteran guard Bob Sura, a league source has told ESPN.com's Chad Ford. The source said the teams are far enough along in the talks that they have a conference call scheduled with the league for Thursday afternoon. The trade would give the Warriors a veteran to pair with second-year forward Mike Dunleavy at small forward. The Warriors traded their other two small forwards, Antawn Jamison and Chris Mills, on Monday in a nine-player deal with the Mavericks. Robinson has two years and $10 million remaining on his contract. It improves GS, but is still a yawner. Strictly a cap deal for Pistons.
That would be a hell of a trade for Golden State, talent-wise. That would more than make up for what they lost in talent in the Jamison trade.
The Warriors were never going to win having to pay Jamison max dollars. He's the SAR of the Western Conference, a guy who puts up numbers to get max dollars but the team doesn't benifit. I'm not arguing that Robinson makes up for the loss, the guy is old, I just think the Warriors are getting too much criticism for trading the guy. I think they made the right move getting rid of him when they could. Losing Arenas, they weren't going to be a playoff team this year anyway.
While I agree with your analysis on Jamison - great player, not a leader/winner - why does trading for Robinson make sense? As you say, they aren't playoff bound this year now anyway, so why take on a a guy with multiple years on his contract, who is old, who only puts up mediocre numbers for a guy (Sura) who isn't much better of a player but at least comes off your books at the end of the year - could the Warrios not do any better holding on to Sura and clearing cap space, or trading him near the deadline as, possibly, the Rockets plan to do with Rice?
Eric Musselman is one of the best coaches in the league. Having Cliff Robinson, a veteran, around will help the learning curve for Dunleavy and JR. Good trade because it's not like Sura was doing anything.
That's what puzzles me. If the point of the Jamison trade was cap related, the Sura trade goes against the grain of the former trade. Assuming NVE and Dampier take their POpts for 03-04, GSW has ~$28m committed. That # now rises to ~#33m with Robinson.
Don't really understand it for either team. For Detriot--they are in good position to win the east next year, why give up Robinson for a few dollars when he brings some dimension to the team. Especially after they let Barry go, one of their other few long time vets. Again, don't like this move at all. For GS--what are the Warriors thinking. First NVE, now Robinson, two guys who do create mismatch problems with their individual offensive skills but who have never been know as great teachers/team oriented guys. These are not the kind of players to surround a rebuilding team. The Warriors might be just good enough to miss a top 3 pick, but with no franchise player in their roster (their closest one was just traded away in fact) or on the horizon the future is bleak. Should have been smart like Denver 2 years ago and just blown up the whole team and try to get in good draft/FA position a year, two or 3 down the line. BTW Denver is the WC nodoby who I really think is on the right track. I really like how that team is shaping up and think they might surprise.
Great trade for Warriors. Bob Sura replaces Jon Barry on the Pistons. But Robinson was an influential guy....it seemed...on the Pistons. And they should be getting Darko. And they got Larry Brown.
Detroit did not need Cliff Robinson anymore. They're set to start Mehmet Okur at center (rookie last season), they signed Elden Campbell, they drafted Darko Milicic, they have Zeljko Rebraca, and they've still got Ben Wallace. They have more than enough centers and power forwards. Cliff became unnecessary once they lucked into Darko and decided to sign Elden. In Sura, they replace Barry with a guy who will play defense (Barry did not), and will be a placeholder for Carlos Delfino who is not likely to play in the NBA next season. Sura's contract comes off the books and that will allow them to offer Mehmet Okur a better contract after the season (or match the offer he gets from another team). Golden State adds a great defensive player in Cliff Robinson. The rest of his game is fading, but he is among the best one on one defensive players in the league still and he's a vet that knows how to win. The cap implications are irrelevant for them because they are not trying to get under the cap after this season, but two seasons from now and beyond. It's a somewhat minor trade, but it's good for both teams.
Let me get this straight, you are puzzled because GSW made a move that makes no sense?? That's the Warriors you are talking about, defying common sense is the norm with this team. The extension of uncle Cliffy, who will be 37 in December (2 years, $10M) was a big puzzle for me. He definetely didn't have much much left last seqason. I thought that Dumars just wanted to make a statement that he is loyal and will take good care of his players. That he would actually be able to dump this "gratuity" contract on somebody else only shows you what an imbecil GSJ is.
And Sura's is for one. What is your point? Mine was that Sura expires next summer and Robinson ups the committed for 03-04.
1) I don't call 2.9 DRebs, 1.07 steals and 1.09 blocks in nearly 35 mpg a defensive presence. Robinson's value is clearly that he can play the 3, 4 or 5 on offense and he stretches the D. 2) The cap implications are not irrelevant. GS will be under the cap next summer but (assuming NVE and Dampier take their options) by adding Robinsons they can now only spend $10m as opposed to $15m. That's the difference between an Odom type contract ($10m) and a Kidd type contract ($13.3m). It's also the difference between signing only an Odom or signing an Odom and having $5m left over for vets and role players. Especially ones younger than 38.
Defense isn't judged by stats. Bad defenders can get a lot of steals because that's what they go for. Bad defenders can get a good number of blocks because that's what they go for. Cliff Robinson keeps his man from getting position, and forces them to take tougher shots if they get the ball. That's what defense is. Are you aware he was second team all defense the year before last? He's a great individual defensive player. There's absolutely no way that Nick or Dampier take their options. They'll never see that money again and they know it. The Warriors will not be under the cap until two seasons from now at the minimum.
Clifford Robinson was selected to the 1999-2000 All Defensive Team. By my count, that's 4 seasons ago...not "a couple". Robinson was 33 at that time. He will be 37 in December. If you think Robinson is a great one on one defender you probably think Rick Fox is also...what's that guys name in the paint for LA? I think Wallace (and the Pistons' D scheme) has more to do with your perception than what is actually the case. This is flat out wrong. Next summer, GSW has only the following committed: NVE - 11.8m Dampier - 8.1m Robinson - 5.3m Dunleavy - 3.6m Eschmeyer - 3.1m JRich - 3.5m Pietrus - 1.8m T Murphy - 2.2m That is under the cap after 1 season. As I pointed out, they would have been under $5.3 more next summer by keeping Sura.
Sorry, but your research needs a little work. Here: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/clifford_robinson/bio.html "2001-02: Appeared in 80 games (80 starts), averaging 14.6 points (.425 FG, career-high-tying .378 3FG, .694 FT), 4.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.11 steals and 1.19 blocks in 35.7 minutes per game…In 10 playoff games, averaged 13.2 points, 3.0 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 1.80 steals and 1.90 blocks in 40.9 minutes…Named to the NBA All-Defensive Second Team" Cliff Robinson is and has been an excellent defensive player. Detroit usually had Cliff guard the better offensive players with Ben helping when necessary. As for GS, you've ignored Speedy Claxton and the draft pick they may get (and they'll be getting a lottery pick) that will put them in a position closer to the cap and given the few amount of guys under contract placeholder contracts are required as well. They would probably be right near 5 million under the cap (which is the same as not being under the cap). They would have technically been under the cap, but not by enough to get a good player.
Last year Cliff Robinson got zero first team all defense votes and 6 total votes--same level as Kirilino and Brian Grant. He isn't a bad defender, but I think over his career Robinson's reputation has been by far made based on his offensive mismatches (a big 3 or 4 or 5 who can hit 3's and handle the ball OK) though his discipline has always been somewhat of a questionmark. Robinson is a decent player for a very good playoff team looking for a 6th, 7th man to create match-up problems--but I really don't at all see how he fits in GS long term plans. Further his lack of great court discipline (especially for a vet) is perhaps not the greatest thing to show younger players. Ditto for NVE.
