Christian couple tortured and burned to death in Pakistan

He didn't make anything up and he didn't attach that to you.

You made the claim that "radical Islam" doesn't take hold where people well educated, blah blah blah. He responded by telling you that opinion surveys have shown that even in well educated populations that are also employed, blah blah blah, those two opinions have some standing. He then claimed if you don't think that is radical then he can't help you.

You are either wrong about radical Islam not happening in those places, or you are twisted because you don't think those are radical.

 

No. They really don't.

The problem is that it now becomes too detailed to be any fun to talk about. But I'll give it a shot anyway.

Initially we were talking about one type of terrorism. There are many. Most of it isn't religion based, it's land and governance based. Sometimes that intersects with religion, and sometimes one is only a way to disguise the other. But the study doesn't make the distinction and tries to address all types of terrorism so it is too broad to really be the best gauge in the discussion we've had.

However, even given that, what I mentioned still stands. You've chosen to focus on only part of what I said and that may be where the misunderstanding occurred.

I mentioned resources, poverty, dictatorship, and education. The study itself mentions that politicization is the primary cause which fits right in with what I said about dictatorship. You've chosen to ignore that portion of what I've said.

Furthermore resources, in many cases, determine the ability be self sustaining nation which affects poverty and education. If you put all of the things I mentioned together the causal conditions mentioned in the studies you posted would be greatly eliminated. We know that poverty and education do play a role in the types of governments that populations choose which then ties into the causes suggested by what you posted. It all comes back to the entire list of what I posted, and not just one or two parts of it.

The other thing the study mentions is the long held beliefs of other groups enabling terrorism. While not in my initial list, I did later post that I agree that the dehumanizing of groups can definitely make a breeding ground for terrorism and other heinous acts.

Even this was not as detailed as it should be. But more in-depth conversations don't make for bbs material. This topic has already outlived it's usefulness.

 

Yes, he did, and you apparently weren't able to see through it. As I mentioned above, ATW focused on only part of the list I made and ignored the other parts of it which fit in exactly with what the studies said.

He then presented some words that he made up as if they were what I was saying. That wasn't what I was saying at all.

What I was saying keeps radical Islam from taking a significant hold and finding large percentages of the population to support it is in keeping with what I mentioned.

 

Wait a minute...

You lay out an agenda of four broad causes of terrorism taking hold and then a study is posted that disproves 3 of the 4 and you cite that as a victory for yourself?

I'm not yet ready to hold those studies as gospel myself, but they certainly don't back you up.

Is it at least possible in your mind that your preconceived idea that radical Islam and terrorism are just products of poverty and poor education and bad political situations might be wrong?

Highly educated, middle class or better citizens from around the world are resorting to radical Islam. Did you watch the 60 minutes special they did where they sent their reporter to the UK to interview a cleric there? That was the first time I found myself actually "scared" watching an interview. His supporters were well educated, radical Muslims FROM THE UK who were not interested in liberating Middle Eastern lands from western control, but rather bringing Sharia Law to the UK.

 

Nice try Broham, although you'd like to change the subject from your dishonest posting methods, that's pretty much where the topic will stay.

Daedalus never asked a question, and he's free to believe as he chooses. He's also free to use the wealth of information the internet provides.

Now, are you sure that you've provided all the relevant material, or are you information-hiding again?

 

I'll add a big ? just for you.

 

I will admit that the study did give me pause. Yet, at the same time the study focuses on broader terrorism than just the radical Islamic terrorism we were focused on.

In addition, there will always be well educated middle class terrorists for numerous reasons. However in a society with the resources to remain self sustaining, a good education for all classes of its citizenry and a lack of long history with dictatorship, and I don't see a huge swell of radical and dangerous Islam. Once it is established in nations without those things it is easier to spread to other nations and classes.

 

I guess the simplest way I can put it with the studies is this...

They talk about political involvement being a motivator for terrorism along with beliefs (even if they are false) about a group or groups of people being a motivator.

The way I see it, good education for the majority of the population, lack of poverty because of having the resources to be self sustaining, and a lack of authoritarian rule will also combat those things that the study lists as possible causes of terrorism.

Lack of authoritarian rule would ease up on the political part of the cause, and a good education for most of the population would ease up on bogus beliefs about groups of people.

The things I mentioned seem like a way to deal with what the studies ATW quoted claim are the causes of terrorism. Add integration of the different groups and it would really help wipe out the causes the study lists. It seems like it is all tied in together.

 

It is the frickin' totalitarian ideology, stupid.

You are torturing logic and using a lot of words to try and justify your theory that it's all socio-economic. Again, socio-economic factors are contributing factors, but your constant attempts to exonerate Islam from being the main cause of the varying degrees of intolerance, violence and extremism are really forced. And this forced exculpation of Islam only serves to underestimate the nature and reach of the problem.

Look at these news and the little video. They just murdered a professor of liberal arts who merely questioned them at a town hall meeting, and many others. It's exactly the same blueprint - murder, intimidation, violence - all in the name of Islam.

How A Libyan City Joined The Islamic State Group

CAIRO (AP) — On a chilly night, bearded militants gathered at a stage strung with colorful lights in Darna, a Mediterranean coastal city long notorious as Libya's center for jihadi radicals. With a roaring chant, they pledged their allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State group.

With that meeting 10 days ago, the militants dragged Darna into becoming the first city outside of Iraq and Syria to join the "caliphate" announced by the extremist group. Already, the city has seen religious courts ordering killings in public, floggings of residents accused of violating Shariah law, as well as enforced segregation of male and female students. Opponents of the militants have gone into hiding or fled, terrorized by a string of slayings aimed at silencing them.

The takeover of the city, some 1,000 miles (1,600 kilometers) from the nearest territory controlled by the Islamic State group, offers a revealing look into how the radical group is able to exploit local conditions. A new Islamic State "emir" now leads the city, identified as Mohammed Abdullah, a little-known Yemeni militant sent from Syria known by his nom de guerre Abu al-Baraa el-Azdi, according to several local activists and a former militant from Darna.

A number of leading Islamic State militants came to the city from Iraq and Syria earlier this year and over a few months united most of Darna's multiple but long-divided extremist factions behind them. They paved the way by killing any rivals, including militants, according to local activists, former city council members and a former militant interviewed by The Associated Press. They all spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear for their lives.

Darna could be a model for the group to try to expand elsewhere. Notably, in Lebanon, army troops recently captured a number of militants believed to be planning to seize several villages in the north and proclaim them part of the "caliphate." Around the region, a few militant groups have pledged allegiance to its leader, Iraqi militant Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. But none hold cohesive territory like those in Darna do.

The vow of allegiance in Darna gives the Islamic State group a foothold in Libya, an oil-rich North African nation whose central government control has collapsed in the chaos since the 2011 ouster and death of longtime dictator Moammar Gadhafi.

Extremists made Darna their stronghold in the 1980s and 1990s during an insurgency against Gadhafi, the city protected by the rugged terrain of the surrounding Green Mountain range in eastern Libya. Darna was the main source of Libyan jihadis and suicide bombers for the insurgency in Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion. Entire brigades of Darna natives fight in Syria's civil war.

This spring, a number of Libyan jihadis with the Islamic State group returned home to Darna. The returnees, known as the Battar Group, formed a new faction called the Shura Council for the Youth of Islam, which began rallying other local militants behind joining the Islamic State group. In September, al-Azdi arrived.

Many of Darna's militants joined, though some didn't. Part of Ansar al-Shariah, one of the country's most powerful Islamic factions, joined while another part rejected it.

The main militant group that refused was the Martyrs of Abu Salem Brigade, once the strongest force in Darna. The fundamentalist group sees itself as a nationalist Libyan force and calls for a democratically formed government, albeit one that must enforce stricter Shariah law.

For the past months, it has battled the al-Battar fighters and the Shura Council. Al-Battar accused the Abu Salem militia of killing one of its top commanders in June and threatened in a statement to "fill the land with (their) graves."

Meanwhile, a militant campaign of killings in Darna targeted the liberal activists who once led sit-ins against them, as well as lawyers and judges. Militants also stormed polling stations, stopping voting in Darna during nationwide elections in March and June.

In July, a former liberal lawmaker in Darna, Farieha el-Berkawi, was gunned down in broad daylight. Her killing in particular chilled the anti-militant movement, said a close friend of el-Berkawi. "People had done their best (to force out militants) and got nothing but more bloodshed," she told the AP.

Those who stayed tried to co-exist. Some submitted letters of "repentance" to the Islamic militias, denouncing their past work in the government. Militant group Facebook pages are dotted with letters of repentance submitted by a traffic police officer, a former militiaman and a former colonel in Gadhafi's security apparatus.

With opposition silenced, militant factions first came together on Oct. 5 and decided to pledge allegiance to al-Baghdadi and form the Islamic State group's "Barqa province," using a traditional name for eastern Libya. After the gathering, more than 60 pickup trucks filled with fighters cruised through the city in a victory parade.

Last week, a second gathering in front of a Darna social club saw a larger array of factions make a more formal pledge of allegiance. Al-Azdi attended the event, according to the former militant. The militant himself did not attend but several of his close relatives who belong to Ansar al-Shariah did.

Now, government buildings in Darna are "Islamic State" offices, according to the activists. Cars carrying the logo of the "Islamic police" roam the city.

Women increasingly wear ultraconservative face veils. Masked men have flogged young men caught drinking alcohol, a former city council member told the AP.

Militants have ordered that male and female students must be segregated at school, and history and geography were removed from the curriculum, according to two activists in the city. New "Islamic police" flyers order clothing stores to cover their mannequins and not display "scandalous women's clothes that cause sedition."

Opposition to the militants, already scattered, is under threat. During the extremists' first meeting, a colleague recounted how Osama al-Mansouri, a lecturer at Darna's Fine Arts college, stood up and asked the bearded men: "What do you want? What are you after?"

Two days later, gunmen shot al-Mansouri dead in his car.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/09/libya-islamic-state_n_6129116.html

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Nttnpy1UcrE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is just "socio-economic"? No, this is fascist fanatism. And the world needs to ask the questions heroic Osama al-Mansouri asked while we still can. He cannot ask them anymore.

People like you trying to downplay the threat are only helping the cause of the intolerant Islamists.

P.S.: For those who don't know, that city is 1,600 km from the closes ISIS-ruled territory. The only link: Extremist Islam.

 

Yes, what they're doing is totalitarian, and terrorist, and fanatical, and wrong.

I've never said that I support in any way fanatical Islamist terrorists.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that post. I've always been against those things, and never said differently.

I will point out that Libya was long held by a dictator, and despite oil profits in the hands of a few, the general population was extremely poor, and lacked higher education.

That being said, I'm not trying to leave out these fanatical fascist terrorists brand of Islam as contributing to their hate and crimes.

I'm talking about a way to combat that particular brand of Islam. It's with better education, integration with women, moderates, maintaining a govt. that isn't totalitarian, and having a self-sustaining economy in which the general population can take part. Do that and fewer people will be willing to pledge themselves to ISIS and there won't be the support of people who go and murder professors.

 

I never meant to imply that you share their goals or actively support them. What I meant to say was that by trying to downplay concerns about how the ideology contributes to the problem, you inadvertently help them. We should not underestimate those guys.

Okay.

This sounds nice in theory, but I am sadly more pessimistic. If you read the article about that Libyan city (80,000 people, which is not tiny, after all), the first thing the fanatical Islamists did was to gun down a woman and a liberal, educated professor. That is why I think it is crucial that intolerance must be stopped where it even starts to creep in. And that is my whole point here. We need to recognize the seeds of intolerance and fight them before they grow into trees. Once the intolerance has started establishing itself, it is extremely expansionist in nature and ultimately leads to what you see in this Libyan city and in Iraq and Syria, and in parts of Nigeria, and in Afghanistan and in Pakistan and in Saudi-Arabia. And in my opinion, intolerance starts as soon as these Islamists try to impose "their way" (that includes full veils imposed on women) on us.

 

Tsk tsk ... adding a question mark just shows grammatical laziness. It would have been more expedient to just ask a question instead of dedicating two posts to taking short cuts. Here's how:



"Did Rashid Al-Ghannushi actually say the quote that is attributed to him by memri.org?"

Probably. They're the main site all the other articles reference about this quote, and there doesn't seem to be much to suggest it's false.



"Oh, right ... the 'ignorant leftists' had already said that he's not a boy-scout, didn't they?"

Yes, they did. In addition to condemning Zionism, you an also find quotes of him denouncing the West's involvement in the middle east.



"So, obviously the Ennahda party wants to secretly take over the government and impose sharia law and take away our alcohol, right?"

Probably not ... that's a logical leap. While Rashid Al-Ghannushi is not a fan of the West and Israel, he also doesn't seem like he wants Tunisia to tumble into violent lawlessness. You can find articles describing his efforts to convince the more extreme Islamic groups (like the Salafis) to work within the government, rather than circumvent the law using violence.

Separately, Tunisia's Ennahda party (which was established as an alternative to Tunisia's 23-year single party autocratic system), gained power through a democratic system, formed a coalition government with secular parties (even though they didn't have to), lost power (recently) through a democratic system, completed a peaceful transfer of power by stepping down and congratulating the secular Nidaa Tounes party's victory, and agreed with secular parties during the drafting of the constitution that laws should not be based on the Sharia system. On balance, they might not be half bad.



"I'm glad we had this civil, logical conversation that wasn't mired with conspiracy theories and false boogie-men, thanks - I learned a lot."

You're welcome.

 

I won't trust people who praise the mothers of suicide bombers and who call for Israel to be wiped off the map. If you don't consider that half bad, that says more about you than anything else.

But - I will give you that this guy is not as bad as ISIS or people like that. Not that that is saying a whole lot. Just goes to show how much the goalposts have already moved in the West - many don't consider a guy half bad, even though he praises suicide bombers, just because he is not "as bad" as other extremists. Some will even give a guy like that an award.

 

Lived in Karachi for 18 years. I remember 5 years ago when I was there an angry mob lynched in broad daylight a teenage boy for stealing. Turns out later that he wasn't even guilty.

I think 90% of the population is sane. But the other 10% are so crazy that you don't want to mess with them. Women can't earn much money there so if you're a guy and you die who takes care of your wife and kids ? They'll be beggared unless you have wealthy relatives. You can't win against a person who is ready to kill himself.

Of course if you stay in the proper circles you won't ever get in touch with these crazies just like in Mexico I guess if you are careful you won't ever get in troubles with the cartels. But if you start making noise and making a stand you'll just end up like those 43 students in Mexico. The crazies will kill women and children without a qualm. They are the vilest of the vile, the scum of the earth.

Pakistan is just such a big **** hole. I don't really see any light at the end of the tunnel for the country and it sometimes really depresses me. Other times I wish someone would just nuke the entire country.

 

Are you of Pakistani descent? That's kind of harsh, man.

 

It really isn't.

 

You will not understand, and I don't mean this in a bad way. It just is what it is. To see things from my perspective you have to have seen the daily nightmare that is life in Pakistan. I have given up any hope for any positive change happening there.

 

what is life like in pakistan? why are so many liberals bent on fixing that part pf the world if there aint any hope?

 

Life in Pakistan suffers from the long list of mental ailments that are particular to Islam. I don't want to write up each and every thing that is wrong there because it'll put me in a bad mood. If you read the D&D you'll become aware of all of them eventually.

I don't know which liberals you are talking about, as I don't really have much interest in politics both in Pakistan and over here as it's just mostly an exercise in futility. I can imagine however that things can get much worse over there. Imagine the clerics getting their hands on the nuclear weapons there. They'll happily turn us all into termites to get their hands one their 72 virgins. So maybe why it is in the best interests of humanity for the US to keep an eye on what's happening there.

 

Thank you nono. Sadly, I think you are right about everything you are saying.