I agree with leebigez. The biggest mistake a GM can make, in my opinion, is to pay role players like stars. This is what CD/Les did, more than once. Brent Price. Matt Maloney. Mo Taylor. Kelvin Cato. Moochie Norris. Shandn Andersn/Rice. Then the fiasco of not trading Griffin when the offers were there and trouble was mounting already. I can forgive the bad draft picks - some pan out, some don't. But the bad contracts? Sitting on your behind and not doing anything when trouble is clearly ahead?
Just about every GM in the late 90's and early 2000's overpaid for role players. The economic landscape is different now and MANY GMs are learning from their past mistakes. Clearly this is why we did not resign Posey and instead split up the MLE on Pike and JJ and used the veterans minimum on A. Griffin.
I'm glad you brought that up because that is something I think many of the optimists on this board forget when trying to justify the team's success post Hakeem. The Rockets went 14-0 against the weak central division of the eastern conference that year and lost few games against the weaker eastern conference over all. Leebigez is right when he says their record that year was misleading because you measure today's NBA success against how a team performs against the western conference and the Rockets didn't perform any better against the west that year than they have in the two years following that season.
Firstly... Mo is playing harder under VG...defending and going after boards. DOnt believe everything you read..I see this in game after game lately...and feel that if he continues at his current level of development and gets his offensive game going as well as he can...he may well be worth the money...I feel it is too early to call this one a bust. Second.. Cato...you know as well as I do that center comparisons have been done here before...and at that time Cato was within the range for good starting centers...now he is playing better than before and covering 2 positions on the floor...how is his salary a mistake at this point in time...Im not referring to last year...or the year before...Im referring to NOW. Thirdly... We dont know for sure that there were bookoo offers for Griffin....and how were they to know that EG would blowup the way he has? If they could see the future, Im sure none of these supposed mistakes would have been made. My point here....how could they know that Eddie wouldnt come around with another chance? Possibly they felt that his upside was worth waiting for.
I completely agree regarding Griffin's behavior and the hefty contracts for role players. I think those things were extremely questionable and the team deserves to be taken to task for those decisions. I really only had/have two points: 1. On balance, our record in trades, free agency and the draft is no better or worse than the whole of the NBA. There probably are teams that, arguably, have done better and their are definitely teams who have done worse (cough...Clippers...cough). Scrutinize any franchise and you turn up bad decisions, stupid contracts, lopsided trades. It's the nature of the business. 2. I'm ok with CD taking SOME of the blame. He deserves it without question. But, claiming that he was responsible for all that the team is simply untrue. If we really think the mistakes are eggregious enough and want a solution, firing CD won't do the trick. You have to look to the whole basketball side of the organization for that.
1996-7 - Traded Sam Cassell/Robert Horry/Bryant, Brown for Barkley Good on the paper (I didn't like it, still don't) - Signed FA Kevin Willis Good - Signed Matt Bullard OK - Signed Matt Maloney from CBA Bad - Drafted Othella Harrington in second round Great - Signed Sedale Threatt OK - Signed Eddie Johnson OK 1997-8: - Drafted Roderick Rhodes with 24th pick, Serge Zwikker 30th Bad - Traded a future 2nd round pick to Vancouver for Sam Mack Good - Clyde Drexler retires early, probably a couple years before he needed to. Later, Pippen and others said it was because he couldn't stand playing with Barkley. That's CD's fault? 1998-9 - Traded Kevin Willis to Toronto for Roy Rogers and 2 - 1998 first round picks OK - Drafted Michael Dickerson (14), Bryce Drew (16), Mirsad Turkcan (18), Cuttino Mobely (41) Good, Bad, Bad, Great - We told local homegrown talent Rashard Lewis we would draft him with one of our first round picks, but we didn't. He sat in the draft room and cried as he went into the second round. Very Bad - Traded Roy Rogers, '99/00 2nd round pick to Chicago for Scottie Pippen. Good on paper; Bad on hindsight; I didn't like it, never liked Pippen - Signed Pig Miller OK - Traded rights to Turckan to the 76ers for a conditional first round pick (we used it to trade with Atlanta to obtain Terrence Morris) Good - Signed Stanley Roberts Bad - Traded Rodrick Rhodes to Vancouver for Sam Mack. OK - Pursued McDeyss, but he didn't come to Houston, because he didn't feel Houston had a good point guard. (Imagine if we hadn't traded Cassell.) Bad, but nobody's fault - We were offered a trade by Toronto for Olajuwon for Kevin Willis, Doug Christie, #5, #12 in 2000 draft. There was some discussion from insiders that Tracy McGrady could have come in the trade also, but that Toronto wanted a player that CD didn't want to part with. I remember ThaCabbage going ballistic over that one. Very bad on hindsight, but OK at that time Deleted hingsight dreamcasting 1999-2000 - Drafted Kenny Thomas (22), Tyrone Washington (44), Venson Hamilton (50) OK - Traded Brent Price, Michael Dickerson, Othell Harrington, Antoine Carr and a conditional 1st round pick to Vancouver for Tony Massenburg, Ndiaye, and draft rights to Steve Francis, sent Lee Mayberry, Rhodrick Rhodes and Michael Smith to Orlando Magic, took back Don Maclean. Great - Signed FA Shandon Anderson Very bad - Turned down deal for Pippen to Miami for PJ Brown. Bad - Traded Scottie Pippen to Portland for Walt Williams, Stacey Augmon, Carlos Rogers, Kelvin Cato, Brian Shaw and Ed Gray. OK - Signed Kelvin Cato to a multi-year contract extension. Bad, but not so bad now - Waived Matt Maloney, Don MacLean, Stacey Augmon, Thomas Hamilton, Brian Shaw, Ed Gray. OK - Signed Moochie Norris Very bad 2000-1 - Drafted Joel Pryzbilla (9), Eduardo Najera (38). OK - Traded draft rights to Pryzbilla to Milwaukee for Jason Collier (when we could have taken Turkoglu, Magliorre or MoPete) and a future 1st round pick. Traded Najera and 2nd round draft pick to Dallas (which we could have used to take Loren Woods, Jarron Collins, or Alton Ford) for Dan Langhi. Very bad - Signed FA Maurice Taylor Bad - Traded Bryce Drew to Chicago Bulls for 2 future 2nd round picks (later used in Utah trade with Rice for exception and Amaechi) OK - Signed Sean Colson Bad - Signed Cuttino Mobely to cheap contract extension. Great 2001-2 - Traded 13th, 18th, and 23rd pick to NJ for #7 to take Eddie Griffin, when we could have taken 3 of Jefferson, Randolph, Brandon Haywood, Raul Lopez, Gerald Wallace, Jamaal Tinsley, Tony Parker, or Gilbert Arenas. Of course, many thought it was a steal, since Griffin had been considered by some as a possible #1 pick. But, we never actually met with him, or tried him out before we drafted him. Bad on hindsight; Good at that time - Waived Carlos Rogers Bad - Traded Olajuwon to Toronto for 2002 1st and 2nd round picks, later used for Boki and Mattox. Good on hindsight; Saddest thing at that time - S&T Shandon Anderson to NY for Glen Rice, and Kyle Hill. Bad - Traded Turckan pick to Atlanta for Terrence Morris. Good - Signed Oscar Torres Good - Signed Tierre Brown Good - Signed Marc Jackson to qualifying offer, which GS matched. Nobody's fault but the Warriors' - Signed FA Damon Jones OK - Traded 2nd round pick to Milwaukee for Kevin Willis, which we could have used to draft Carlos Boozer. Hindsight dreamcasting - Waived Dan Langhi OK 2002-3 - Drafted Yao Ming with 1st pick in the draft, Boston Nachbar (15), Tito Maddox (38) Great, OK, OK - Gave Francis Max 6 year contract extension OK, what else do you expect? - Traded Kenny Thomas to 76ers, recieved James Posey from Denver. OK - Didn't trade for Rashard Lewis or SAR, when they asked for Griffin in return. Good at that time, Very bad on hindsight 2003-4 - Pushed Rudy Tomjanovich out as coach Did he? - Lost out on Larry Brown, by diddling, but signed Jeff Van Gundy as coach, their next choice. It was Brown's fault, I'll never forgive Brown for that - Signed FA Eric Piatkowski, Adrian Griffin, Mike Wilks, Jimmy Jackson Great - Posey signed with Memphis, leaving us nothing for KT. Good for not matching the overprice--don't pull the KT deal in, it's a separate deal - Didn't re-sign Terrence Morris or Jason Collier. OK - Traded Glen Rice, 1st round pick, 2-2nd round picks from Bryce Drew trade with Chicago to Utah, for Amaechi, 2004 2nd round pick, and exception. Good--I know it's debatable - Received contract extension for doing such a great job. ? - Signed Scott Padgett, Alton Ford Good - Waived Eddie Griffin, who was immediately picked up by NJ OK I counted 6 great moves, 11 good, 19 OK, 11 bad, 4 very bad, plus 4 bad moves on hindsight but good at the time. If you take away the hindsight things, I say it's been an even job. Some teams have done better. Many other have done worse.
I have to agree that there are those who are better, there are those who are worse ... After looking at all the moves, I just found myself dissappointed. Instead of assuming they know what they are doing, I'm able to look back and see how it actually turned out, and wonder if what I thought they SHOULD have done, could have been better. I know, it's foolish dreamcasting. I think what is hard, is that I'm having to adjust my view. After being Champions, I sortof felt we were better than most of the other teams. I felt that they were making shrewd moves at first, rebuilding, taking risks, aiming toward the future, doing what it took to get back in the Finals. I kept giving them the benefit of the doubt, even though some things I raised my eyebrows on. I figured they knew better than I. I know they still know a ton more than I do. I just wanted to see them go back to the championships again ... and it's been hard to watch them screw that up. The problem is that I believed ... now I know I just need to be supportive, and enjoy my home team. I'm proud of the fact that they are a class organization. They care about their players. They don't go through the usual turnover of so many clubs. They probably overpay them because they are proud of their team, even if it's not what is best from a rebuilding point of view. Maybe they'll pull off something somehow. They often do. And I'm sure they're heading toward the playoffs. But, instead of believing they could be championship bound within another few years, I'm realizing that it'll probably be more like when Dream was here, and if Ming decides to take the team on his back 10 years from now, maybe we'll see it then. We took our trip to the lottery, and we probably won't be there for a long time. We didn't do what San Antonio, Denver or Cleveland did. But, yes, we've done better than LAC and most of the other teams, just not THE best, and THE BEST is what win's championships.
I think CD did average. I would rate him average for making so many mistakes. Missing out Rashad Lewis is huge, and some other huge trades that he dropped in which he should have made. But he did pull off some good trades like getting Pippen and Barkley here. So i would rate him average or a little above average. Getting Yao is an obvious choice with the #1 pick. He could have pulled some big trade this summer i think like getting rid of Eddie for Rasheed Wallace but he dropped again.
Kind of hard to separate the GM from the owner, but here's my primary observation: CD (and Rudy) had some success picking "diamonds in the rough." Because of this, they seemed to rely on their ability to do so repeatedly, often overpaying for the ability to snag a "diamond" they were particularly interested in. Nobody really has a magic ability to snag low-round diamonds. Some are better at it than others. CD may well be good at it. But when you consistently overvalue certain players more than the market, you're probably wrong more often than not. Barkley... Griffin... etc... I don't have a problem with. When you play high stakes, sometimes it pays of, sometimes not. It's the Morris, Maloney, etc issues that I dislike.
The one thing that the list is missing is the 2nd contract that the Rockets gave Maloney. He was a good pickup when we first signed him, as he was able to do the following well: 1) Get the ball into the post 2) Hit the 3 consistently when fed from the post Maloney was a key player in our victory over Seattle in 1997 (because of his 3PT shot, Gary Payton couldn't cheat on defense and thus our post players had an easier time). But that series also revealed his shortcomings (slow, poor dribbling skills, No D), which should have led the Rockets to seek out a similar CBA PG that summer. Instead, they gave him the long term, $20-some odd million contract, which will only come off the books this year. So while the first signing of Maloney was a good move by CD (maybe even great), the 2nd contract was very bad. Also, I seem to remember that Rhodes was the player who could have gotten us McGrady. While he probably shouldn't have been drafted in the 1st round, there were few decent players left at the point (Jacque Vaughn, Marc Jackson, Stephen Jackson, Alvin Williams, Eric Washington). At the time, Rhodes seemed like he could become a decent big combo guard (he did have good court vision and good passing skills, plus he was a very good defender). However, he didn't improve his shot at all during the off-season, and once we got Dickerson, his bad attitude and injuries made him expendable. So at some point, we probably could have gotten more than Sam Mack for Rhodes, but hindsight is 20/20. I think Cato's play over this and the previous season makes his signing an OK move by CD. The key mistakes seem to have been the large contracts to marginal role players (MoT, Brent Price, Maloney, Mooch) and the failure to trade Griffin when he still had value (if CD did indeed know about Griffin's problems). For my own fantasy tradecasting, I imagine the Rockets could have traded Griffin and the 2002 #15 pick to Denver, NY or the Clippers for their own pick (#5,7 or 8). We then could have picked Amare Stodamire, Nene, or Caron Butler (preferably Amare, of course). But again, hindsight is 20/20.
According to David Aldridge, at least CD gets joke of the year Joke of the Year: What goes clop, clop, clop, bang, bang, bang, clop, clop, clop? Amish Drive-by. Courtesy of Carroll Dawson, Rockets GM
Over-paying guys that aren't that good doesn't really affect anything, except cap room, and your ability to trade the players for something useful - but if the 'overpaid' players are so bad that people think they're grossly overpaid, chances are they wouldn't be attractive in trade anyway, even if their salary was more reasonable. Since almost every team is over the cap to begin with, complaining about a couple of generous signings doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Most of the teams that made big moves in the off-season didn't have any cap space.
None of those guys were paid like stars. Incidentally, here is where the Rockets have ranked in payroll the last 5 years: '98-'99: 11th '99-'00: 7th '00-'01: 18th '01-'02: 20th '02-'03: 19th '02-'03 should include Rice, Taylor, Cato, and Moochie, yet they're still 19th in the league.
To be frank, neither does your post to me . Therefore, the fact that they are overpaid is CRUCIAL, and therefore complaining about "generous signings" makes a lot of sense. If these players, who are not that attractive in a trade to begin with, have an expensive contract, it makes them virtually untradable and you are absolutely stuck with them, even if they really suck. If they had a reasonable contract, one could always try to get rid of them in a trade in which one couples them with a player that is attractive in a trade. If they are grossly overpaid, the only way to get rid of them is to trade them for other grossly overpaid players (see Moochie for Weatherspoon). Yes. Another reason to ask - if they could do it - why could CD not do it? Plus, coming back to my previous point, they might not have had cap space, but they had players whose contracts were at least not horrible enough so that they could still be moved.
I can't pull up all the contracts, but Moochie got something like a contract that was worth a total of $ 22 mio. If you think that that is what he was worth, no further discussion is necessary. Maloney was overpaid. Proof: We bought out his contract and had his salary count against our cap for years, just to get rid of him. Taylor has a huge contract that will pay him something like $ 34 mio. over the next four seasons (7.8/8.45/9.1/9.75). You can get 10 points and 5 rebounds, a higher fg % and a few blocks out of Brian Skinner for far less money than that. Shandon got a ridiculous contract relative to his output because of a promise that had been made to him, so that we had to do the sign and trade for Rice.
16 teams make the playoffs. So, in 99-00, we did not make the playoffs even though we had the 7th highest payroll in the league? Apparently, in the following three years, if your numbers are correct, we ended up where we should have ended up based on money expenditure. I would think one of the challenges for a GM would be to have a higher ranking at year's end in the standings than in the "money spent" rankings - in other words, you should be able to outperform a team that has spent a similar amount of money. If you can do that, you did a good job. The last four years, we have not done that. The aforementioned contracts might just be one of the reasons.
We are not talking about anything CRUCIAL here, by any stretch. You may not be able to trade those players, but you can still improve your team. Moochie was not holding the Rockets back. If Moochie and Mo are overpaid, that leaves 10 guys that aren't. Why couldn't he do what? The Rockets made multiple moves this off-season. I imagine the Rockets have plenty of players that COULD be moved as well. But that's not all it takes to make a trade.
Your reasoning leaves much to be desired. What matters is not that there are 10 guys that are not overpaid, but that the contracts of the two guys that are overpaid do not allow us to pursue free agents who would perform better than these two guys.
I didn't say that's what he was worth - I said he wasn't paid like a star, which is what you had claimed. Was he paid like a star? I've already addressed the importance of being 'under the cap'. Even with this contract that supposedly counted against the cap, the Rockets have still been pretty low overall in salary compared to the rest of the league. The guy missed a whole season due to injury. And if Gundy played him more and knew that offense was also part of the game, you could also get more than 10 and 5. How is Maurice Taylor's contract preventing the Rockets from improving themselves? Do you think that every team in the league is completely happy with their roster 1-12, and each player's salary? I don't see why anyone other than Leslie would care about how much he was getting paid. So you would rather have not given Shandon the contract, and killed any chance of wink-wink deals in the future?
