Brandeis University rescinds honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali for being critical of Islam

So calling a religion as a death cult ideology and calling for the whole religion to be eradicated is not hateful? You have some backward ass thinking.

And she is going waaaaaaaaaay out of her way to be hateful. Just like you and a few other people in this world do so about Islam. Get a life.

 

Threatening someone with death is hateful.

Criticizing an ideology that makes people want to threaten others with death is not hateful.

 

Read my initial post on the first page regarding that. When she has called for a reform she has been right but is never consistent with her narrative. Other times she thinks Islam should be wiped out since according to her, it is impossible for it to coexist in modern society. It is a very fascist stance she solidifies when she calls it a death cult and thinks it should be eradicated. There are many others that preach a sensible anti-Islam message....her....not so much.

 

Islam ought to be wiped out. If there was a way without harming any individual and allowing them to leave the religion on their own concent I would be all for it. A peaceful end to Islam would be amazing. Would you not agree?

 

Yeah because Islam doesn't calm you down and make you a better person.

 

Not generally no. At best it wastes 5 times out of your day burning calories bending and kneeling. I'm sure if Islam didn't exist, Hakeem would have found another way to grow up into a mature adult.

 

Can't you say that about all religion? Like why waste a good Sunday of football? Or why are you not eating meat? Or w/e....

 

Yes I can. It would be amazing if all humans stopped believing in myths.

 

well then I think we'd likely won't find common ground on this topic.

 

Good luck. The basis of Islam is rebellion against people controlling your beliefs. It is the story of a dictatorial family in the poorest place on earth maintaining their power and wealth and imposing their beliefs on others. It is the story of a man from that royal family shunning his tribe's values and insisting that he will believe what he wants to believe, and he will communicate it to whoever he wants. It is the story about how that guy and the people who listened to him were tortured and abused, threatened and murdered, treated like unpeople.

The idea that wiping Islam away will solve these problems is absurd. The idea that extreme Islam is distinctly responsible for Ayaan Hirsi Ali's life is absurd. In the 1970's, the minority of Christian Somalis lived the same atrocious life as Muslim Somalis. Same problems. Same gender inequality. Same abuse. Same everything.

More importantly, there is a reason why (for example) extremist Islamist Turkish families are incredibly less violent, discriminatory, abusive than an Islamist Somali family. Certainly, extremist Islam shares some cross-border and cross-region views, but they are few, and more importantly the occurrence of acting on these views is vastly different.

No matter how much it suits us or we think it is right, we have no business controlling what people think. I hate the idea of people wearing burqas and niqab, does that mean I should try to eradicate this belief from the world? Never. What it does mean is that it's none of my business until it obstructs me. So if we are worrying about the actual abuse that Hirsi Ali faced, and the systemic patterns which links her abuse to other people's abuse, we will find that what she faced is (in order) due to the socio-economic situation where she lived, the culture, and then the religion. Her situation would hardly be any different whether she was brought up by a self-professed Muslim family or Christian, or anything else as long as her family was in those circumstances, her country was in that state, and her culture remained the same. If we want to help people who suffer from the consequences of extremist Islam, then let's get to the core problem. If we ignore the process of going to the source of the problem, then we have already accepted that we are xenophobes that insist on limiting the problem to the place where we arbitrarily see fit.

From Hirsi Ali's various soundbites, it is abundantly clear to Muslims at least that she does not know what Muslims believe, and she does not know what Islam means. I'm not talking about a particular brand of Islam. I mean, literally, when she speaks about the allegedly Islamic practices of her family, there are things she mentions which are beyond a shadow of a doubt unrelated to Islam and uniquely part of Somali culture. It is a joke because some of the things she mentions has even the most extremist Muslims all over the world confused as to what the hell she is talking about. Things THEY have never heard. And she doesn't know that she doesn't know. And people like ATW don't know that she doesn't know that she doesn't know. And then people like ATW grant her some status as a speaker about Islam, when she has a very weak understanding of the subject she is attacking. If you build a career on being critical of something, you should know that thing very well. But she can't even differentiate between religion and culture because thank God she escaped that life just in time to make a new life for herself. But that doesn't make her an expert. That makes her an example, and we should be learning from that example.

 

Again, your side always strawmans our argument. First off, you assume that I believe that religion is the ONLY problem on this planet. No, it is one of many issues we deal with.
Secondly, using persuasive language in order to change someone's mind about their religion on their own free will is not wrong, evil, or forceful. I have no intensions of shoving my beliefs on to them by going their and starting athiest missionaries. All I said that I wish that all humans who literally belief in a myth change their mind on their own free will. Of course I know this would never happen.

Islam could have replaced a worse set of morals 1400 years ago. The number one problem with Islam is that believers of the faith believe that the holy book and it's prophet are PERFECT and there is no room for improvement. A moral code that has no room for improvement is dangerous.

 

I know... Out of context.

 

It is out of context, but you don't understand at all. As much as it horrifies us now, this was the most progressive domestic abuse doctrine of its time for the people the text is addressing. One minute before this verse was public, men were murdering women (including their own wives and daughters) at will.

The lesson here is to push people's rights forward. That's the context you don't understand. That this verse pushed women from being murdered to being hit by their husbands according to certain conditions. At the time, it was a huge leap forward for women's rights. We're talking about a time and people where prior to Islam men would bury newborn daughters because of shame or economics.

To use an example relevant to yourself, in 1300 years when the idea of soldiers going to another country to wage war becomes defunct, what's going to happen is that people are going to talk about how barbaric those soldiers were and how sick it was for people to partake in the rules associated with that behaviour. That doesn't mean you're a barbarian. That doesn't make those laws, when viewed in correct context, barbaric. What it means is that if someone does the same thing 1300 years from now, that guy is a barbarian and those laws are barbaric.

 

Oh, I get it now. The Quran is just trying to help advance women's rights. It's a good thing societies are still using it in the Middle East to advance women's rights. Mathloom, a true warrior for women.

 

"Your side"? lol If I have a side, then which side are you? Please, tell me.

I didn't say religion is the only problem, and I didn't say you said it. I said you are assuming that religion has a far greater share in the problem than you implied.

Secondly, yeah it would never happen except through violence, deception or education. As for humans not believing in myths >> what's a myth? It's not just something for which we don't have evidence or proof. Because if that's what it is, then you'd be wiping the idea of, for example, a future global peace.

Third, most Muslims believe the holy book is perfect. A lot of people think the mythology behind Star Wars is perfect. This doesn't make people do what they do, and it doesn't stop them from leading healthy, civil lives. Why would you want to change the mind of someone who is not harming anyone else or impeding anyone else's freedom? Why do you have this wish to erase belief in myth? It's very strange frankly. Muslims don't believe the Prophet is perfect. The Quran states repeatedly that he's just a man, and that humans can't be perfect. Even the most extreme Muslim minorities don't believe the Prophet is perfect like God. This is a myth, maybe you can start with eliminating this one.

A moral code that has no room for improvement is dangerous, agreed. Has nothing to do with Islam. Even the most extreme Muslims are constantly innovating new laws and morals and they consider these to be improvements. But obviously, when you say improvement, you mean in a way that you predict to be an improvement. In reality, what is dangerous is the absence of a will to improve. The idea that Muslims aren't attempting to improve their moral code is, of course, another myth that you seem to believe.

The real danger here is that you don't seem to consider your moral code to be an ideology just like religion is an ideology. The problem we have is ideological, not just religious. In the same way the worshippers of Capitalism don't consider themselves ideologically charged, and think that gives them a free pass from the same criticisms which apply to religions. It doesn't.

 

FIFY. You're welcome.

Also, you need to work on your reading comprehension, especially since this is probably the only language you speak. I did not and do not support imposing these rules in this day and age.

 

Well this thread, and basically every thread on this board about Islam/the Quran, is not about whether 1300 years ago it was a step up for people. This thread is about a current commentator who is challenging Islam/Quran and how it is impacting women today.

How many languages do you spin in?

 

What a horrible analogy. There is a small difference between the mythology of Star Wars and Islam. People literally believe in Islam and thus believe that the text of the Quran and his messenger are objective moral truths. You can convince yourself or others as much as you want but the very nature of Islam and its holy book and its prophet being perfect in the eyes of it's followers is a problem. There is no room for progression in Islam UNLESS followers just flat out ignore the more barbaric moral guidelines of the Quran which fortunately many Muslims do which however is contradictory to one of the core principles of Islam which is that the Quran is the perfect book from God through his perfect messenger Muhammad.

While there are Muslims that are for reformation of Islam, many oppose it for the very reason that they believe the Quran is already perfect and has no need for reform.

 

LOL Mathloom please

why is it relevant that the Quran was somewhat progressive 1300 years ago. The ideas are stupid backwards in terms of women's right, and the problem is there are a lot of Muslims who takes those backward ideas seriously and apply them in real life.

the quran being progressive thousands of years ago doesn't mean anything.

 

I won't go so far as to call it hate speech. But I do think her views are very narrow-minded. She's painting Islam with one broad brush by saying all of Islam must be defeated, not just radical Islam.

You see on this board that lots of people are taking the actions of extremists and saying that it is All of Islam that is responsible for that. So these death treats against her is part of "Islam" as opposed to a segment within Islam.

She's playing to radicals by giving them ammunition. She's hurting moderates.

There's only one way you're going to solve this whole mess. It's by education. And you aren't going to educate a culture by telling them they are fascists. That's just stupid and completely self-serving.

She's not trying to change or solve the problem she's trying to demonize.