could someone document the "dream asked for an extra year" rumor... i've heard it quite a bit, but i didn't find out about the trade until the chronicle started talking about it this past summer, and at that time, dream seemed rather peeved. i know that there have been times before where dream a) either asked for a trade (pre championships) or b) complimented vancouver's beauty and suggested that he wouldn't mind retiring there; but this past summer i thought that he spoke from the heart when he gave the big analogy of the 'bookcases of his career' being in houston, and how he couldn't imagine it any other way... as far as charles, i'm pretty confident that i can stretch my love to include whatever championship team he would be traded to . i disagree that were he to go east that it would be a waste b/c the title would 'definitely come out of the west'... remember how we were exhausted in the jazz wcf (wcf - the ol' double meaning when it comes to anything to do w/ the wailman 3:16), the west is loaded, and it will probably be to the west's detriment if teams have to play 7 game series to get to the finals... i want to see dream succeed, charles (in particular succeed) and this team succeed... hopefully, though, they can all do it together. one note (sorry if it's already been made in this monster), but if dream is traded, then charles HAS to be traded b/c most offers would give the rockets a snowballs' chance as far as this year's opportunities... vice a versa isn't necessarily so, obviously, since dream's more nostalgic than hungry... oh yeah, somebody pretty please let me know where the 'dream asked for an extra year' thing came from. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited November 23, 1999).]
Cab: Your objection is noted. Granted you have valid points. Except: 1. Charles would be going as a "teacher" a "facilitator". A role he likes, even if he doesn't display it. Anyone who has ever met or got to know him knows he is a smooth over the rough guy. Contrary to poular believe he wants everyone to like him. he would do anything to play that role. He would be seen as an asset. And that is half the battle. 2.Iverson and Barkley would be long lost buddies before the media even caught wind of it. A Brown/Iverson/Calipari/Barkley group hug would be done long before anyone was the wiser. Clutch: Same as in LA. He would have all that Shaq stuff ironed out long before any announcement. As far as Pippen is concerned, I keep hearing that the Two Jerrys are not going to let Phil get his way with having the Pimp. That whole Pippen to LA thing may be a non issue. Other Things: I am amazed that no one has shot down my Pacer suggestion. Actually Smits will probably retire around Christmas. You heard it here. They need a big man presence. They seriousily need a leader on that team. Bird would kill to have someone of Hakeems stature (literally and figuratively) on the court.(As an added incentive, the Pacers are trying to get a career ending injury exception for Smits, if he doesn't pan out this first half of the season and retires prematurely. The league has exceptions for that type of thing. Assuredly Smits will be gone. Pacer's will get a portion of his salary. They will be shopping.)
Watson's Buddy in the Houndstooth Tweed: Are you suggesting we could get PJ Brown for Barkley? Cause where do I sign. Riley would never do that. Sprewell would never be a posibility for Charles. Hakeem. Now that may be possible. But as everyone pointed out ... there is serious doubt that anyone would pull that trigger again. Hakeem has to be wanting out. My guess is he dances with who brought him. He stays put. Star-Studded-Rookie-Trey: Smits has a serious problem with his feet. His pain is almost constant. The spaces between his metatarsals (foot bones) gets inflammed and swollen during every game. The swelling cause even more msialignment and increased problems with moblity. He contemplated retiring before the start of the season. [This message has been edited by popeye (edited November 23, 1999).]
I don't think Houston needs to trade Barkley or Olajuwon. The Rockets are one or two players from solidifying the line-up. Centers: Olajuwon and E. Johnson (Milwaukee) or McIllvaine (NJ) PF: Cato and Barkley SF: Rogers and Bullard SG: Anderson and Drew PG: Francis and Alexander (Denver) Trade Value: Mack, Massenbury, Mobley, and Williams It wouldn't take much to trade for E. Johnson, McIllvaine, or Alexander. Johnson and|or McIllvaine would provide interior defense and Alexander can be the backup PG.
I'm disappointed that Clutch would post this. Well call it loyalty but I am with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat and GermanRocket. You don't trade these two guys. Trading them WILL NOT show respect for them. Barkley maybe if he wanted it - just for the chance of a ring but I think the suggestion might turn his stomach more than not getting the ring. I like the earlier post of letting these young guys learn from two of the best. And franchise players like Hakeem deserve the respect of retiring with their original team if they so desire. That's not loyalty, that is an organization having some class. I think it is shortsighted to panic and want to "trade, trade, trade". I would agree to a smaller trade for a defensive player, either backup or starter, but if you take away Dream and Chuck then we really do have a lottery team this year. The Rockets have always tried to win as their first objective. I don't think trading our best players besides Steve Francis in order to get a lottery pick would set well with this organization. Finally, I don't think the Rockets have given up on the season yet, so why should we. I haven't even though I thought we were going to be a very good team this year. I think we are close to being pretty good. Upsets happen. I would agree with a "smaller" trade (I'm not that knowledgeable so don't ask me for a specific trade) for a defensive player or an energy player like Cliff Robinson or Cedric Ceballos. If Kelvin Cato will step up and show some guts by staying in the game, I don't think we need any trade. BUT GET DEREK HARPER! NO TRADE FOR HAKEEM OR CHUCK.
No and No. The Rocks should only trade Big Sexy if that is his wish. I would be very surprised if after giving him $9 M that BS would demand a trade. Of course from a season ticket holder prespective, I think either trade would be throwing in the towel for the season and an attempt to get the top lottery slot. BTW, what this team really needs is more new players who will need to be integrated into the team. It will be just like starting the season over and just when the Rocks are playing better ball. Makes plenty of sense to me
Sherlock: Good points, BUT. I don't know if Anderson or Cat are going to cut it at shooting guard. The idea of Chuck to Philly for Hughes and filler would be good, Indiana for Bender or Harrington, Croshere and filler, New York for Camby or Sprewell and filler, Miami for Outlaw or Brown and filler, LA for Rice and filler ... all these could fill missing holes for us and rebuild for the future. None of us here know exactly what the market for a Charles Barkley would be like, but I am pretty confident that we wouldn't be able to reel in half that much artillery for the Chuckster. No team is willing to give star quality (Hughes, Camby, Sprewell, Rice, Brown) value for Charles. What I had in mind is more along the lines of decent role players, maybe Fisher and Horry from LA, perhaps any combination of Lynch and perhaps Snow for Philly, Kurt Thomas, Childs, and draft pick considerations from the Knicks. I think Harrington or Bender though, would be pretty realistic from the Pacers. If a Barkley deal were to go down, don't expect any big names to be included. I would expect more along the lines of decent bench-to average starter quality guys. Popeye If that is so, and Charles really does love the "teacher" role, why doesn't he move out of the way and serve it on this team? I just think his imposing nature will get the best of him and he will try to do too much for the team, while in fact he will be hurting them. Clutch I think that the most probable destination for Barkley would be Indiana. I feel so, because they have one of the deepest benches in the NBA and can offer the type of players that we need. Guys along the lines of Bender of maybe even Harrington if they want Barkley bad enough. I think LA certainly would be interested, but what could they offer? Perhaps Fisher and Horry, but that in no way helps us.
The Rockets should try to trade both of these players to contenders. I think that trading Barkley to a contender will be most fair to Barkley since he has played his heart out for the team and he only came to Houston, in the first place, to play for a contender -- which the Rockets no longer are. I would trade Hakeem because I think that we would get the most trade value for Hakeem. Simply put, while he is old, and his skills have deteriorated, he is still one of the best centers in the game (it just shows you how bad the current crop of NBA centers is), he can dominate a game on occassion, and who knows, if he is playing for a contender, he may just find that spark once again. If the Rockets trade these players we should either get valuable players back in return, or we should get players whose contracts are up at the end of the year so that we can free up salary cap room at the end of the season. One other thing. Trading Barkley and especially Olajuwon should be done as quickly as possible. A player like Olajuwon doesn't just fit into a team. A team will have to make major readjustments to its style of play to accomodate a player like Olajuwon. Thus, if the Rockets are going to trade Olajuwon, it should be done in the next month. The problem with trading either of these players is that there are not too many teams who are in competition for a championship and who have a glaring need at either the center or power forward positions. Some thoughts: Phoenix: Olajuwon for Gugliotta. I would also be interested in Rex Chapman -- an outside shooter who can actually hit a shot. Lakers: Trading Barkley to LA has been hyped to death. I just don't see it considering the relationship between Barkley and Shaq. But I would do the trade for Glen Rice whose contract is up at the end of the year. Minnesota: Olajuwon for Joe Smith. Such a deal would require that the Rockets trade Barkley as well. (see lakers above). It would be interesting, however, to see a Rocket team with a starting lineup of Cato, Smith, Rice, Anderson, and Francis. Milwaukee: Olajuwon or Barkley for Tractor Traylor. I would also be interested in Tim Thomas. Seattle: Olajuwon and Barkley for Vin Baker and whatever is necessary to put the rest of the deal together. Yeah. These deals will probably never happen. But what the hell.
bballfanatic: although I understand your intentions as far as loyalty goes, i believe you've missed the point... the situation is a hypothetical one for the future, say 20-25 games from now (however many are allowed actually before the trade deadline) try to get yourself in that mindset (having lost a ton) and reevaluate the scenario... wins/losses always affect/distort perspective... e.g. had rider scored 32 points for us in a few games (as he did for the hawks tonight) marketing as well as a few wins would change people's impressions of his being a 'cancer' in that light, (and in the graces of the players) the trades become a possibility...
Trade Barkley...this may be his last year and I would like for him to have a shot at a ring. The Rockets won't be any help here so trade him to the Bucks (for Traylor) or Lakers (for picks). Both teams are in need of a PF and have a strong roster. Traylor isn't real involved in the rotation in Milwaukee but has potential. Bark is only going to be around one more year so you don't have to worry too much about trading within the conference or division.
Tod: I would love to get either Joe Smith or Tim Thomas. Two rangy, young athletic big men to fill out our lineup. If Olajuwon did indeed request a trade, and we had to trade him, either of these two deals would be ideal. Pretty realistic too, seeing that they are not stars, but quality players. In fact, I think that is a really good idea. Clutch, throw Tod's idea into the jar along with Popeye's Pacer's possibility. Barkley for Tim Thomas or Joe Smith [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited November 23, 1999).]
Like alot of people, I really doubt that Dream goes anywhere - the fiasco over the summer took care of that possibility, and he will remain a Rocket until he retires. Barkley on the other hand is very deal-able. Don't forget he is a tremendous rebounder, a fierce competitor, a quality passer and a low-post scorer, there are plenty of teams who would trade for him. But why would Chuck want a trade for this year, unless he was going to a team with a legit title shot (those he includes in his annual "lists" of teams to beat, always including his own). To me that limits the choices to LA, SA, Portland, or Miami. Let me touch for a second on your "Dream to Indiana" thing, though, Popeye. Just player-wise, since it would be impossible from a PR standpoint. Who would thePacers give us, without seriously opening up other weaknesses? Reggie is untouchable. I doubt they give up on Harrington, a future star. Bender is hurt. Unless we could get a guy like Rose, we're limited to aging stars like Dale Davis, Mark Jackson, Sam Perkins, or Chris Mullen. Would you trade Dream for, say, Davis, Perkins, and Best (with Indiana's cap relief from Smits working out the cap problems)? I would rather wait the 18 months until Hakeem retires, and get the cap room then, instead of making a trade for aging vets (who would probably gripe about heading out to a rebuilding team).
Man, my post didn't make it on the board and it was really long. Hmmm, accident? I agree with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat, and GermanRocket. My bottom line is you don't trade these guys. Let the young guys learn from two of the best. Hakeem has made it clear he doesn't want to be traded - franchise players should be given the respect of retiring with their original team. Call it loyalty if you want, I call it class. I have said before somewhere I would trade Chuck ONLY IF HE WANTED IT to have a chance at a ring. I would have no grudge against him for that. I want him to have a ring. Yes, that is pure sentimentality. Geez, had a lot more to say before. Oh well. Oh yeah, my only moves at this point are get DEREK HARPER and maybe SAM MACK. Or else a smaller trade (Don't ask me who cus I don't know) for a defensive player or an energy player like Cliff Robinson or Cedric Ceballos. If Kelvin Cato would step up, he and Derek Harper would solve some problems, and we are close to being a good team in my opinion. We'll see.
No you do not trade either. Chuck only if he wants to go to a team with a chance of a title. Dream has stated he does not want to be traded - let's respect that as he deserves it and would be the class thing to do. I'm with Pole, HeyPartner, Fattyfatfat and GermanRocket on this one.
Sorry to respond so late to this, but the team has shown loyalty to many of its players, TDS. My wife knew Mario Elie pretty well, and the last season he was with us, he continually talked about how this (the '97-'98) year was for show, and he was waiting for the big payday from a new team when he became a free agent. Said he wanted to go play for Miami, but would listen to any offer. So what happened? He had his worst season as a Rocket, and didn't care about the team at all. What kind of loyalty do you show a player who doesn't want to play for you anymore? That is the Dead honest truth. ------------------ "I would like to thank... everyone... for their contriboootions" Hakeem accepting his MVP award at the 1999-2000 NBA Finals.
fatty fat fat: thanks for the info... on a side note (to the cb bashers) barkley never said anything of note publicly about elie while he was on the team... afterwards, though, in an si article, he said that the previous year wasn't fun for him b/c elie and drexler were more concerned w/ their contracts than their games... this was later evidenced by the superbowl proclamation where elie suddenly found himself valuable to a team down the street.
Clutch et al: A few thoughts from a believer in the loyalty motif. . . 1. Rudy should not have declined the trade Hakeem out of loyalty to the fans; he should have declined the Toronto trade out of loyalty to Hakeem. When a player takes you from medium-to-low league prestige (comparable to the Hawks or something) and takes you to an elite-prestige team, you do not allow him to finish his career with a friggin Raptor jersey. This is about Hakeem and the franchise, the fans need have no more to do with it than an opinion poll which - contrary to Biff CLinton's persective - should not tell you what type of morals you have. 2. If you say "Rockets need to treat this as it really is: A business" why did everyone get their proverbial panties in a wad about "loyalty" and "what this team means to the community" when it failed? Thats not business - that's personal. ***Before I continue, let me make on thing clear: The Chucky Brown Fan Club endorsed/still endorses - somewhat reluctantly, b/c the Summit rules - the arena deal. For the selective readers out there, we are not arguing the deal should have failed. We are arguing that it failed for business reasons, not characterological, emotional or intellectual defects on behalf of citizens of Houston, TX.**** That being said, blanket references to "loyalty" - as if that arena vote was a barometer for the amount of integrity in Houston's smoggy air and that Les and Co. should act accordingly - is silly. It smacks of bitterness, frankly. "You did not give me my arena, so I am gonna have a tantrum and trade the thing that means the most to you." Two wrongs don't make a right. But if the Rockets' business organization (not basketball, thanks to Rudy) had not perfected their typically corporate recipe for "behave arrogantly, boast, expect trust, expect aything you want, and then and pout like babies when you get your wrist slapped" act long ago, that friggin arena would have passed. They blew it, not the city. Rudy and Hakeem have been paying the public integrity/trust bills for the dubious business side of the organization - the people who brought you new, crappy uniforms after a championship year, crazy ticket prices, hugely expensive merchandise, a host of pissed-off charities and business owners, etc - since Les took over (it's not as bad a move, as, say, the Washington Bullets who have a GM and owner with bags of integrity but players who are losers. Which do you think their press goes. . .). But the Rockets go overboard and it cost them. That's their fault, not Hakeems, and quite frankly, not ours either. Why take it out on him, acting irresponsibly because the arena vote failed? Rudy should not always have to be such a "good" guy, and Hakeem should not have to the Ghandi of basketball for the Rockets to be respected. Rudy and Dream and two rings still was not enough, the arena vote failed because the Rockets - as a local business - could not carry their own weight, no matter how much Rudy and Dream have tried to carry it. So do not take out 'loyalty' frustrations on the only substantial remaining pillars of integrity. Les and Co should not - and to their credit, have not, thus far - break the mirror (arena vote) because they did not like what it reflected. You do not toss princples of a winner on and off the court - loyalty, respect and integrty to name but a few - out the window because you do not get what you want when you want it. Be the bigger man and do the right thing. morally superior but what the hell is new Cbrownfanclub
TodBod, why such a snotty attack on the German ? His point is well taken. Hakeem still is making plays I don't expect from him. And many a center has played a solid role without being the go to guy. That said, Hakeem and Barkley are both definately trade bait if , IMO, this thing goes down hill further, i.e., as stated two weeks ago, 10-30, etc, near the break. House cleaning time.
Trade Barkley. Trade Barkley. Trade Barkley. To a team like Milwaukee or something that is a contender and thinks that Barkley is the missing link for them to get a ring. Get a young player with lots of potential (doesn't have to be a star). Get some draft picks (we all know teams that feel they are close to winning a ring will cough up picks in return for a "missing link".) Then, sit back and watch as Barkley still doesn't get a ring and starts complaining about all his new teammates motivation or cell phones or something. Meanwhile, Steve Francis can work on his game without blabber mouth around whining at him all the time.
