Bill Maher and Sam Harris arguing with Ben Affleck about Islam

There were multiple assassination attempts on the guy when all he was doing was preaching. Someone tried to drop a boulder on his head while he was praying. He was seeing his small number of followers being beaten bloody just for a different set of beliefs. How do you transcend someone trying to wipe you out of existence. Again they weren't mere apostates as in someone trying to just jump from one religion to the next. It was on the level of treason. Doesn't apply to today's context, I don't know how many times I have to say it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-david-liepert/islamic-pedophelia_b_814332.html Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth - The truth about Muhammad and Aisha article

Read this. Read that. I'm done.

 

It's irritating discussing Islam in the D&D and pretty much most places online. The Quran needs to be retranslated and reinterpreted. Currently, the majority of translations are outdated, and the interpretations are contrary to tawhid/the goal of Islam.

Muhammad was not infallible. He is not an absolute role model for posterity. Aisha was not 6 or 9 year olds (I've posted about this before). There is no death penalty for apostasy in the Quran (only God can decide man's fate on this).

I've said it before: saying Islam is or isn't certain way is like discussing exactly what America stands for, who is true American, what is patriotic, etc. No one knows, and no one can say for certain except God itself. This is inherently a structural problem because it's a free market.

fchowd is a former Muslim whose 'brand' of Islam said the Hadiths were valid, Muhammad was perfect, Aisha was a kid, etc. Other brands of Islam like mine disregard the Hadiths (we also follow different interpretations of the Quran). The Hadiths are hearsay evidence written centuries after Muhammad's death. Many of them advocate ideas contrary to the Quran and tawhid. It's like the current NSA surveillance and related stories are contrary to the spirit of America. Some foreigners who love everything anti-America gleefully point this stuff out as upholding American values. I disagree.

There's a chance they're right; there's a chance I'm right; there's a chance there's no such thing as truly American. To apathetic neutral observers who don't give a damn about anything of this, you may as well choose my reformist side and support progressive Muslims like me instead of writing off all of us as enemies.

It's frustrating because I've posted this ad nauseum, however several people have the exact same mindset they had 5 years ago. There is no sincere debate or discussion regarding this topic. No one is learning what Islam is here. There are simply entrenched sides who want reassurance of their initial point of view from like-minded people instead of independently investigating or hearing minority opinions like mine.

 

I am perfectly fine with an individual interpreting Islam in the manner that you do. I know many Muslims in the US who share similar thoughts and are quite secular.

The problem is that the ideology is EASY to inteprert as misogynist and oppressive to non believers.

 

I was just checking in, and if I'm not mistaken, I think I read someone repeatedly trying to imply that it was ok to marry a 6 year old back in the day, justified by:

- Nobody objected
- She didn't even object later when she was older
- They didn't consummate until she was 9

You guys realize this is the mind of the person you are debating with? Why are you even bothering? There is some quality debate on both sides of every issue in the D&D... sometimes you just have to realize you're just on a whole different plain then someone and move on...

 

You're "brand" of Islam would get you beheaded by a large percentage of Islamist is the world. It is their "brand" that leads public opinion. Your brand needs to stand up a crush theirs because they are killing people and giving you a bad name. Don't worry, there are plenty of non Muslims that will be happy to help.

 

ROFL, keep telling yourself that. You can't defend your position, so you have to toss out insults. Par for the course for you.

 

Yeah...she was nine years old, but she looked eleven!

 

Or you have to consider that the poll itself is where the flaw lies.

 

Dmc89, are you saying your D&D opinion is in the minority, or your interpretation of Islam is in the minority?

 

Though I differ a bit with you on some of what you said, I have the same viewpoint on the D&D and the smorgasbord of critical Islam threads. That's why I largely don't post in the D&D and merely just shake my head and move on to the Hangout or the GARM. I merely posted recently about the topic to just shed some light but whenever I do it's a rehash of the same verses/instances folks have problems with explaining them and it just gets redundant and cumbersome.

People are going to believe what they're going to believe and stick to their guns even more even when compelling arguments are put forth. That's internet debate for you. So it's back to the hangout for me. If anyone wants to discuss Islam further or have a question about something, email me or PM me. That's it.

 

The fact that it is arguable that death for apostasy or having sex with children is debatable in Islam says enough about the ideology. Why follow it at all. Stick with your human empathy and secular morality. It's safer and leads you to a less of a chance of having to use mental gymnastics to dissuade others that your ideology advocates corporal punishment for thought crimes and sex with minors.

 

No, criticism is fine because it usually leads to discussion and an exchange and awareness of viewpoints. At the bare minimum, criticism can lead to more awareness and education on Islam and some that even embrace the faith once they learn it properly. I know a good number of converts who are blond-haired, blue-eyed red blooded Americans. Heck, one was an English teacher at my high school! They were harsh critics of the faith cause of 9/11 or some other headline in the news then next thing you know they become Muslim after picking up some books and reading. But only when it's fruitful debate.

Plus I've been here long enough to know your reputation to just go on an onslaught of "Here's what I found on the news about those kooky Muslims - Islam sucks ass doesnt it?" threads. So largely I stay out of it. When I'm compelled to post something, it's to the benefit of someone out there reading that wants a authentic Muslim perspective. If anyone benefitted from even an iota of what I said and got a broader perspective rather than the little bubble they're used to, then I did my job. Otherwise, it's whatever.

 

So you believe you are immune to being in a little bubble like others. I believe I have a handle on the perspective on both sides quite well. It took years for me to reach the conclusion to denounce the faith of my family.

All those articles you've linked, I've had family members share them with me before. I've read them all and discovered that they are nothing more than apologists using mental gymnastics in order to avoid the giant elephant in the room: The religion is antiquated and incompatible with modern secularism unless if the faith holder drastically uses selection bias and practices a heavily secular version of the religion which fortunately my family does.

 

I am saying it is because of generational indoctrination. You have to break that cycle. Islam like Christianity can be interpreted many ways. Islam is no more or less violent than Christianity.

It's how those who are keepers of the religion interpret it and that's the issue. You don't have to address Islam, you have to address the religious infrastructure.

 

The Koran is no more or less toxic than the Bible. History says that Christianity was just as brutal as Islam today. What changed for Christianity?

No. try this: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/08/b...t-roots-resentment-can-be-traced-islamic.html

 

I believe there is one key difference between Islam and Christianity that allowed Christianity to be more compatible with modern secularism and that is the clear separation between the old and new testament. Islam does not really have this.

 

Why would the new testament have that kind of effect?

I think Islam is a 1000 years behind. It hasn't even been around for 1,000 years, it's early in its evolution as a religion.