BBC: Israeli Troops Fire on Reporters/Peace Demonstrators

Thanks. Whether Treemen believes me or not I dont care. I dont think what the Palestinians are doing is right. I dont think what Israelis are doing is right either though. I, like many wish the whole situation would just go away. I think we (US) should start minding our own business. If we are not going to support Palestinians at least dont go out of our way to support their enemy. This is why everyone basically hates us. I understand the Jewish lobbying and money is big in DC, but maybe just maybe we can start thinking about others for once.

Treeman is of course going to come up with his "Israel is the only true democracy" in ME. Well whoopdidddydoo. I refuse to believe that we would give a crap about that particular democracy if it werent for their lobbying and money in our capital.

I don't hate Jews and I don't hate a particular country. Maybe I was wrong to call "damn" or "****ing" Israel. I meant to say people like Sharon and the Israel army and anyone who supports them be "damned". By the same token I wish Al-Aqsa, Hamas, etc..would be damned. All these people do not desire peace at all. The terrorists on Palestinian side want Israel to be gone. The terrorists (Sharon is a terrorist by my definition) on Israeli side want the Muslims to be gone.

In the Chronicle on Sunday there was an article about a protest outside the Israeli embassy in Houston. One of the protestors was Jewish. That made me very glad. That tells me that there are just some people in this world who care about humanity over religion. I dont believe Moses, Allah, Jesus, or Vishnu condone what this world is doing in the name of religion. I dont know that much about whats going on Israel, but I do know that some people on both sides desire no peace, and unfortunately they refuse to let others have peace.

Like I said, I had just started reading up on this stuff recently. I was struggling with my feelings just last week. I was starting to think the suicide bombings were actually a good thing (I'll admit to that). Then I saw a picture of a young Israeli guy crying on the front page of the Chronicle. The guy was Jewish and I dont even know the guy. It still brought some tears to my eyes though. I mean these are people just like you and me! They have a right to live and be with their families just like us in the United States of America. These suicide bombings are killing people like me who just want to lead a normal life. I dont care whether they were Jewish or Christians or Muslims.

Its the same thing going the other way as well though. The Palestinians men are basically being dragged out and shot. The Israeli incursion into Ramallah are killing many innocents as well. There was a story about an elder woman who died when a tank ran into their building and the wall collapsed hitting her. The army refused to let an ambulance come till it was too late. The soldeirs meanwhile ransacked the house and decided this was actually a good thing they were doing. There are kids who are shot at by Israel army for no apparent reasons. There are women who are being raped by the Israeli army when they go into the Palestinian towns. There are innocent men who are taken into custody and beaten because they are not Israelis. Again it does not matter to me whether they are Muslims or Jewish. I look at it as people who are suffering.

There are innocent people dying on both sides and I feel for all of them. Of course I might seem a little biased to Muslims but thats because I am a Muslim. I would rather have a bad Muslim then a bad Jew. I'll admit to that as well. But all I know is that if I had to pick between a life of a nice Jew and a Hamas terrorist, I would not have a hard time deciding. I am picking the Jew.

Overall I wish the US would remove its support from Israel. I also believe the Israelis who knowingly take away land from Palestinians are not that innocent. Palestinian families are kicked out from their very houses, while Jews can take over their land. Why? Just because they are Jews. That is not right either. The Arab world finally came up with a peace plan and it was not even given a chance because of some idiots on both sides. I wish Arafat and Sharon would both have their powers taken away and actually have some leaders who genuinely want some peace.

 

I thought they WANTED to be martyrs? If they're willing to die, why not die fighting soldiers, not blowing up innocent men, women & children? If they were attacking military targets & personnel (or if they took the road MLK & Ghandi did), instead of civilians, do you have any idea what effect this would have on world opinion? The diplomatic backlash against Israeli policy would be astounding. Yes, the Palestinians would be slaughtered by the thousands, but the world would focus on the Israeli occupation, instead of Palestinian brutality. As a friend said, "George Washington would hardly have been viewed as a noble leader of a revolutionary war if his soldiers had been sneaking off to London and chopping up British schoolchildren." The deliberate, targeted murder of civilians CANNOT be legitimized as an acceptable tool for political resistance. Here's Thomas Friedman's take (free registration required):

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/31/opinion/31FRIE.html

Also, here are a series of quotes by Arafat to Arab journalists, translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute (www.memri.org):

Following the Palestinian terrorist attacks during the Jewish holiday of Passover, on March 29, 2002, Israel launched a military operation against the Palestinian Authority. As the Israeli army entered Arafat's headquarters in Ramallah, Arafat granted interviews to leading Arab television channels. Following are excerpts from these interviews:

Interview With Al-Jazeera(1)

Arafat: "They decided to take me as a prisoner, a deportee, or to kill me. No. I say to them [that I will be] a martyr, a martyr, a martyr, and a martyr. …'And they will be in the front line until Judgment Day'… and 'one of their martyrs [who falls in the battle for Jerusalem] is worth 40 martyrs'(2)... Allah, give me martyrdom in… [Jerusalem], the place from which the Prophet Muhammad ascended to the heavens, and the place our lord Jesus was born… I may be martyred, but certainly one of our boys or one of our girls will wave the flag of Palestine over the walls of Jerusalem, over the minarets of Jerusalem, and over the churches of Jerusalem. 'They think it is distant, but we know it is imminent, and we are right'… 'They will enter the mosque as they entered it for the first time'(3)... This is the path I have chosen… Allah, give me martyrdom..."

"We defend not only Palestine, the Arab nation, and not only the holy Islamic and Christian places – but also all men of freedom and honor in the world. This is our destiny. This is a divine decree..."

"Let those far and near understand: None, among the Palestinian people or the Arab nation, will be willing to bow and surrender. But we ask Allah to grant us martyrdom, to grant us martyrdom. To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions. To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions. To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions. To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions."

"This is a call to the Arab and Islamic nations and to all the Christians in the world. This is the sacred land called in the West 'Terra Sancta,' Holy Land. We defend these holy places..."

"We said to the Americans: You must act. Where are you going? Don’t you know this will shake the Middle East? I say to our Palestinian people: 'Oh mountain, the wind will not shake you.' I say to our Arab nation: 'To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions.'"

Question: "Mr. President, Sharon said in his press conference that you have become an enemy, that you are not a partner for peace, and that Ramallah has become a den of terrorism. How do you respond to that?"

Arafat: "Isn’t he [Sharon] a den of terrorism? The occupation is not a den of terrorism? The F-15 and F-16 warplanes are not a den of terrorism? The tanks that place me under siege are not a den of terrorism? Bombing civilians is not a den of terrorism? Forty-seven thousand Palestinian martyrs and wounded in this Intifada are not a den of terrorism? Destroying the institutions of the Palestinian people is not a den of terrorism? Destroying all the farms of the Palestinian people is not a den of terrorism?..."

Question: "Is it possible that the Israeli forces will try to assassinate you?"

Arafat: "They are more than welcome. I seek martyrdom. Allah, grant it to me. Am I better than that heroic youth Fares Odeh? We are seekers of martyrdom. We are all seekers of martyrdom. The entire Palestinian people is a seeker of martyrdom..."

Question: "Mr. President, do you think that this extensive invasion by the occupation forces is in response to the Netanya operation,(4) or a response to the Arab initiative at the Arab summit?"

Arafat: "No. It is a response to the Arab summit in Beirut…to Crown Prince Abdullah’s initiative... This is an Israeli response to all the peace attempts because they do not want peace. They do not want peace!!! (sic) We must remember these things. These extremist elements murdered my partner Yitzhak Rabin. Why did they murder him? Because they do not want peace."

"Why do they distort Camp David? They ask why we did not accept Camp David. Should I surrender Jerusalem to them? Who can accept such a thing? Tell me, who can accept such a thing?... They are the plunderers, the murderers, the real terrorists in the entire world, in the entire world. We are the only people in the world under occupation. We put our hand in your [the Israelis'] hand... If this is the response to the Arab initiative, what does it mean? Who are the terrorists? The Palestinians? The Arabs? The Muslims? The Christians? Did we bomb the statue of the Virgin Mary [in Bethlehem]? The entire world turned upside-down because of the Taliban's attempt to destroy the statue of Buddha – is the statue of Mary not sacred? Is she not the only woman mentioned in the Koran? Is there not a Koranic chapter bearing her name?"

Question: "Sharon says that now there is a war without geographical borders. How do you assess the situation?"

Arafat: "By Allah, we consider all possibilities. Nobody is shaken, nobody is scared, nobody is retreating. To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions."

Interview With Egyptian TV(5)

Arafat: “I want to tell you something: The world went wild because of what the Taliban did to the statue of Buddha. But when they destroyed the statue of the Virgin Mary, who is the only woman mentioned in the Koran, no one in the world says a word... We defend these holy places: To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions."

Question: "...What do you plan to do while the tanks are two meters away..."

Arafat: "What two meters?!! They are bombing me. Can’t you hear the bombing?"

Question: "...Actually, we hear it from a distance..."

Arafat: "They attacked positions within the leadership compound."

Question: "...The question was, what will you do in this situation? How can the Palestinian leadership calm the situation?"

Arafat: "We are all seekers of martyrdom. We will not hesitate and will not retreat... As I told you: To Jerusalem we march – martyrs by the millions."

Question: "Is this a specific response to the Netanya operation?"

Arafat: "Great! All this in response to the Netanya operation?…"

Question: "It is obvious that the sympathy and enthusiasm of the Arab street is not enough. What do you demand now from the Arab leaders?"

Arafat: "To act in the international and global sphere with all the leaders in the world, in order to stop this international and global terrorism led by Sharon. Don't talk to me about terrorism in Kandahar, don't talk to me about Taliban terrorism, and don’t talk to me about terrorism anywhere. The most important and most dangerous terrorism is the terrorism going on in the sacred land..."

Question: "Mr. President, we are following [events] with you and we see the Israeli tanks approaching... We are with you in our hearts and souls and we pray for your safety and the safety of the Palestinian people."

Arafat: "Man, don’t wish me safety! Pray for me to attain martyrdom! Is there anything better than being martyred on this holy land? We are all seekers of martyrdom..."

Interview With Abu Dhabi TV(6)

Arafat: "Allah, grant us martyrdom in defense of the Christian and Muslim places holy to you... We are in the front line, and this people is defending these holy places…"

"True, he [Sharon] besieges us…True, he uses all the weapons prohibited by international law. True he uses depleted uranium, true he uses toxic gases…but we are steadfast… 'And they will be in the frontline until Judgment Day'…"

Endnotes:

(1) Al-Jazeera TV/Palestinian Authority TV, March 29, 2002.
(2) This is a reference to a Koranic verse.
(3) This is a reference to a Koranic verse.
(4) The March 27, 2002 bombing of a Passover Seder held at a Netanya hotel.
(5) Egyptian TV/Palestinian Authority TV, March 29, 2002.
(6) Abu Dhabi TV/Palestinian Authority TV, March 29, 2002.


Is it just me, or is Chmn. Arafat's obsession with death and martyrdom quite unsettling? He sounds almost like a cult leader - Jim Jones anyone?

 

Great post. I agree 100% re: Sharon & Arafat, but who will take their place? Can a pro-peace Palestinian survive (literally) in the current climate where Palestinians suspected of collaborating w/ Israel are lynched in public?

 

I highly doubt the majority of them give a crap about martyrdome.
Education is the key. If these people would actually stop fighting and take the time to edcuate themselves, they would realize that religion is not the key to ones life. Humanity is. Some of these people do not care about their own life, but they should at least think about their own kids futures before supporting more violence.

How long can you people with pistols, stones and sticks last against people with tanks and fighter jets? They are doing what they believe its right. I dont condone it, but its a ****ty situation.

I am not even going to argue with that. Thats because I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately neither side has that great of a leader. People like Ghandhi and MLK dont come around very often. They were men destined for greatness and I dont see anyone in the ME coming close to those two guys.

 

The only constant in this whole situation is Arafat. Israel has had many different prime ministers, including Barak who was elected specifically on a platform of peace with the Palestinians. In addition, there have been multiple US presidents elected from both sides of the spectrum. The only constant is Arafat and conflict. He speaks in English and tells us that terrorism is evil...he speaks in his native tongue and incites violence. Sharon is ultimately just another in a long line of Israeli PM's who has been unsuccessful in reaching any sort of conclusion on this matter. I'm not defending him personally.

 

Why fight at all? I thought the whole point was peace. You can't really be mad at the "damn" (I realize this wasn't the word you were looking for) Isrealis for shooting at some reporters yet still try and defend the Palestinian way of fighting - terrorism.

How? While I really really respect your current feelings on the situation, I find it hard to truly, deep down, 100% understand your opinions given this statement. How does one ever come to this conclusion. Taking your own life, much less that of others, in a suicide is the most cowardly act I can think of.

I'm not siding with anybody on this debate, least of all treeman. Like a lot of you, I find it appauling the way he manages to say "that sure is bad, but..." everytime. Beyond that, though, his arguments do seem to be more thorough, researched and thought out.

What was the true deal with the last proposal? Did the Isrealis offer everything but the right of return, as treeman said?

 

Jay,

Yes, they offered to give up the west bank, and 95% of occupied lands, with an additional 5% taken from Israel to make up the difference.

DaDakota

 

You are condoning terrorism.

Many Muslims apparently would ask the same question about the terrorists who attacked the US, 'how else would you expect them to fight the US?'.

You do NOT, EVER, intentionally attack innocent civilians (whether you are Israeli, American, Palestininian, etc. makes no difference). Attack armed oppressors, facilities, apply political pressure, embargo/boycott, non-violence, etc.

And FWIW, we also support the PLO financially.

Jeff,

I am shocked that you thought that that was a 'really, REALLY' good post.

 

Then I have to agree with MadMax. Arafat is the only constant in this whole process and I don't think he wants peace. I don't think that if he got absolutely everything he wanted he'd be happy. Is the right of return that important a thing that it outweighs you getting 95% of your other demands?

If what treemand and Dada say are correct, would someone clearly and concisely explain to me the Palestinian side to the argument?

 

SO YOU GOT SOMETHING AGAINST BLACK KETTLES?!?!?

 

It goes back to the early 1900's -

"... Stripped to the bare essentials, the Arab case is based upon the fact that Palestine is a country which the Arabs have occupied for more than a thousand years, and a denial of the Jewish historical claims to Palestine. In issuing the Balfour Declaration, the Arabs maintain, the British Government were giving away something that did not belong to Britain, and they have consistently argued that the Mandate conflicted with the Covenant of the League of Nations from which it derived its authority. The Arabs deny that the part played by the British in freeing them from the Turks gave Great Britain a right to dispose of their country. Indeed, they assert that Turkish was preferable to British rule, if the latter involves their eventual subjection to the Jews. They consider the Mandate a violation of their right of self-determination since it is forcing upon them an immigration which they do not desire and will not tolerate - an invasion of Palestine by the Jews ..."

paraphrased - No Jews in their land.

 

Hiroshima.

 

What's the phrase?

Touche.

 

Iraq.

 

Good point boy.

Cohen, do you think the US sanctions are only hurting Saddam and his buddies in Iraq? Far from it. Saddam, his family and his friends are perfectly okay living in their thousand palaces. It is the innocent we are hurting. We are depriving men, women and kids basic life necessaties. They are dying because they have no food to eat. They are dying because they cant afford to put a roof over their heads.

So if US can do it why not Palestinians? Again I dont agree with their methods, but I can kind of understand it.

 

How in the hell is that a good point? Iraquis die because Saddam doesn't give a rats ass about his people and would rather spend millions of dollars on his military than buy milk for his starving kids. Saddam is entirely responsible for the plight of his people. Get a grip.

 

No one condones killing kids. Infact my Muslim belief teaches me that if any child dies...he automatically goes to Heaven. So all those Jewish babies that have been killed are only increasing the Hebrew population of Paradise.

However the fact is the Palestinians have, in their perception, two choices; a) sit down and let Israelis completely annihilate them or b) fight back however ugly it might be. Of course I can distinguish that they should be more peaceful and politically correct in their tactics but they aren't able to. If they had the sophistication they'd target Sharon too like Israel has targetted Arafat but obviously they don't.

 

Suicide bombing a cafe is a politically incorrect tactic? WTF?