BBALLBREAKDOWN: Is James Harden Breaking the NBA Rule Book?

These fouls are always going to go the way of the offensive player. I think you can argue that Harden initiates the hooking motion, but it's only possible if Gibson is using his arms to impede the forward progress of Harden.

 

Nunn said it right. Harden is "hooking into the body". He didn't hook Taj's arm. He hooked into his armpit, into his body. That's an offensive foul and the refs will start calling it now that it has been explained. Believe me, the Spurs are all over stuff like this. There's a reason they don't get rooked. They take care of business ahead of time. It's already been discussed at the league office. Offensive foul.

 

There are four distinct moves that get lumped in as a single thing Harden does. They deserve different treatment.

1) Grabbing the defender's arm and pulling it into his body before going up. This should be an offensive foul. The offensive foul that was called on Harden for this in the Thunder series was a great call, IMO.

2) Taking a bump and then launching a shot as fast as possible. (The scenario shown with Roberson and Nene). Traditionally this has been called as a continuation, and traditionally I have hated the NBA's continuation rules, with and without Harden. I don't believe that a shooting motion that takes place 100% after the foul should be a shooting foul. (It's still a foul, though.) Harden does not get this called continuation any more or less than other NBA guys per occurrence. In my opinion no one should get it.

3) Extending his arms on a drive and daring defenders to take it from him, then going up through the contact. Completely reasonable shooting foul - if you don't like it, defend with your feet, not your hands.

4) Going up directly through the arm of a defender who is trying to pull themselves around a screen with a hand in Harden's shooting pocket. This is also a good foul call, whether it's on the ball hand or off hand - if it were not, then defending with a hand constantly hovering over the ballhandler's forearm would enable anyone quick enough to be in arm's reach of a shooter to reduce their shooting percentage to 0 with perfect consistency. This foul is also different than the KD ripthrough - KD's move was adding an unnatural secondary action to the shot to collect the contact and he could have released the shot without contact at any time; Harden's is clearly part of the shot and he couldn't shoot at that moment without contact. And once again, if you don't like the whistle here, then go under the screen or catch up to him from behind, and stop reaching.

 

In scenario where the defender reaches and offensive player hooks it's more of a bang bang type situation. Which is why Harden doesn't always get the call.

Now for your next scenario I agree that if player is not in shooting motion at time of whistle it shouldn't be shooting foul. The bald guys makes a valid point about Harden bringing the ball up with one hand. But that's hard to Guage in real time.

Actually his arm is out but like I said it's a subtle thing. he extends his arm as he is shows on Harden. Your arm does not extend 45 degrees at rest.

 

^This, there are a few different things that are happening here and it is important to talk about them separately.

To answer some earlier questions, we don't guard with our hands unless we are trying to steal the ball (what players try to do when Harden holds the ball out on his drives). Otherwise, we keep our hands in their face to block their vision (Battier was great at this) or keep them up to challenge them if they rise up for a shot. Basically, don't reach forward, reach for the sky instead. Perimeter defense is all about staying in front the opponent and to do that, it involves your feet. Screens make it harder though which is why PnR/P is so popular. Fight under it and you feel compelled to reach against a player like Harden. Fight over it and a player like Harden just pops off a jumper in your face. Post D is a completely different beast though.

 

It's ridiculous to expect a defender's arms to either be straight up or straight down.

Gibson's arm was there first, and as long as Gibson is stationary, his arm is entitled to that space. Therefore, if Harden uses his arm to hook Gibson's arm (which is what happened), that's a foul on Harden. However, if Harden uses his torso to run through Gibson's arm, that's a foul on Gibson.

 

What came first Gibson extending his arm in Harden's path on the show after Roberson messed up and went under the screen leaving Harden wide open for the shot...or Harden capitalizing on this mistake and drawing 3 FTs on Gibson???

 

Your video required me to download something so I didn't watch it. Based based on your description of events, Gibson's arm extension came first.

 

I was trying to just show that play. I don't know how to upload. But I believe you get my point...

Edit: I got video to work now.

 

Maybe they should have a rule determining if the defender has his arms parallel to his body or perpendicular. A lot of times Hardens draws fouls coming from the defender sticking his arm out after the ball. In my previous post I mentioned if a player can put his arm in the shooting space of someone that would be the ultimate defense.

Stop sticking your arm infront or pay the price.

One thing we should note is how focused harden is to be able to do this. A lot of times he jumps up trying to do his thing, if he doesn't hear a whistle he immediately dumps off the ball in a pass before he lands. I think even in the Thunder series he wasn't even performing as well as he had in the past. It has to take a lot of focus to do his trick while also being the guy who is looking to facilitate.

He is looking at the entire court WHILE looking out for the defenders arms. Its pretty good if you asked me.

 

I think Pop should start using the Hack-a-Harden rule. Show up the league by putting one of the best FT shooters on the line 40 times in a game. You know... just to prove a point

 

so you say, but I would want that call and I respect that call as an offensive player.

what you guys fail to realize is what Harden doing is The same thing as running into a screen and falling down to get the call, taking a hit in the post or on a charge and falling down to get the call, The continuation rule where you draw the foul and you just throw it up with no intention of making it to get free throws.

this is how the game is officiated, if you are in the shooting motion when you get fouled you get free throws. Either way it's a foul but hard it is maximizing it and making sure they call it and hes smart for that.

simple fact is play defense, or get your beat. Defenses keep trying to cheat and keep the advantage on their side hardem says no

 

Watch the way Shane defended Kobe. He moves his feet, his hands aren't draped all over his man. Shane would've never gotten his hand caught in the cookie jar, why can't today's players do the same?

 

Yay! Reward poor defense! There's no way that will last if they start calling it. Octopus defense is not what the excitement of the NBA is about. You protect a guy for poor defensive positions and let them stop a penetrator by calling hooking. That's not the exciting brand people love. That's trying to stop James Harden and ruining your product in the process.

Players need to learn to play proper defense and if they do, the game will be way more exciting. Not by rewriting the rules.

Anyway, here's the NBA rule book: https://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/official-nba-rule-book-2015-16.pdf

Nowhere does the word "hooking" appear. *******probably important*****

Section I—Types a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an opponent by extending a hand, arm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a position that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.

Taj commits the foul and instead of being a sucker and getting a non-shooting foul, Harden turns it into 3 points. It's within the rules to do what he's doing, the issue is whether or not people like it. If it's a popularity contest, we lose. If it's about the actual rules that I've supplied via the NBA, we win. Rules is rules.

So... why are you against the rules if they help the Houston Rockets? That makes no sense to me. Why argue against our success? I'm honestly getting to a point where I question whether you're a fan of the Rockets or just an NBA fan with no home other than Clutchfans. If the league office is discussing it, it's not because there are questions of whether or not refs are following the rules. They don't want us to win, that's the only answer. They would be cheating the rules and us if they change anything.

Again, "hooking" is not written into the rule book. If it was, maybe there's a foul, but turns out "hooking" isn't in there.

Here's something:

2. Guarding an Opponent In all guarding situations, a player is entitled to any spot on the court he desires, provided he legally gets to that spot first and without contact with an opponent. If a defensive or offensive player has established a position on the floor and his opponent initiates contact that results in the dislodging of the opponent, a foul should be called IMMEDIATELY. During all throw-ins, the defensive player(s) must be allowed to take a position between his man and the basket. A player may continue to move after gaining a guarding position in the path of an opponent provided he is not moving directly or obliquely toward his opponent when contact occurs. A player is never permitted to move into the path of an opponent after the opponent has started his upward jumping motion. A player who extends a hand, forearm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent and thereby causes contact is not considered to have a legal position in the path of an opponent. A player is entitled to a vertical position even to the extent of holding his arms above his shoulders, as in post play or when double-teaming in pressing tactics. Any player who conforms to the above is absolved from responsibility for any contact by an opponent which may dislodge or tend to dislodge such player from the position which he has attained and is maintaining legally. If contact occurs, the official must decide whether the contact is incidental or a foul has been committed.

I'm right (not because I'm smart but because I actually researched the actual rules) and Nunn is wrong. Saying something as an official doesn't mean you're right. It's why we have a constitution, you have rights. James has rights and the defender's rights are laid out there. Please stop arguing with me unless you quote the actual rules.

 

Read the rulebook, it's linked here:

https://turnernbahangtime.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/official-nba-rule-book-2015-16.pdf

That's step one, step two would be quoting the section Harden is violating. Otherwise, drop it and admit to yourself that you might have been wrong here. The arm has no rights and it's absolutely in the rule book. I quoted it above. So stop, just stop talking and start reading. It's good for you.

 

I win.

 

Sorry, but I'm not wrong. Read #2 in what you posted above.

" If a defensive or offensive player has established a position on the floor and his opponent initiates contact that results in the dislodging of the opponent, a foul should be called IMMEDIATELY. "

Gibson was there first. Harden hooked him and moved him. It should've been an offensive foul on Harden.

Furthermore, you bolded this:

"A player who extends a hand, forearm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent and thereby causes contact is not considered to have a legal position in the path of an opponent."

That doesn't apply to Gibson b/c Gibson's arm extension didn't cause the contact. Harden's hook caused the contact.

 

Exactly the only reason the media is pushing the rule change is because they don't want us to win. It's obvious the media is biased against Houston historically and Harden since he came to Houston. Just look at how they flip flopped their arguments for MVP in 2015 and 2017 (both years Harden led the league in win shares on a top 3 seed) and the fact that Harden didnt make an all NBA team last year despite being 29 ppg 7.5 apg 6 reb...

 

A player who extends a hand, forearm, shoulder, hip or leg into the path of an opponent and thereby causes contact is not considered to have a legal position in the path of an opponent.

 

Media conspiracy. Deserve its own thread.