It's been combatted over and over again -- his genetically bad shoulder broke down, just like his father, preventing him to lift for a year and inherently leading to weight loss. Common freakin' sense. If that's not the textbook case you're referring to, please elaborate.
his genetically bad shoulder? you have a dna analysis on his shoulder riiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttttt
I don't think he cares whether Bagwell did it or not, he seems more interested in taunting MadMax and the Cat. The thing is, I see a lot of people aknowledging the possibility, not burying their heads in the sand, we just need something more than "some guy" saying a gym owner was boasting about providing to Bagwell. How is it that there are signed checks for tons of other guys, failed internal steroid tests for Bonds at Balco, former players giving other guys up, former trainers giving guys up, etc, but the best we can find for Bagwell is "some guy?"
I believe he was diagnosed with chronic arthritis in his shoulder and if his father suffered the same fate, I assume it could be considered genetic.
Really? So you are saying that, a reasonable person would not believe that a serious powerlifter who used a little-known, risky steroid like Androstenedione (which occupied a gray area even then) is not more likely than an average person to have used an illegal steroid or other banned substance at some point in their life? That's just moronic. It's like saying a whiskey drinker isn't more likely to have tried moonshine than a teetotaller, and it's completely unreasonable to believe otherwise. That's not what I said and your desperation at losing an e-fight is showing. Yeah, remarkably 've been pretty successful earning a living at it for 8 years now, maybe I can get some kid who is obsessed with protecting the name of his boyhood heros to advise me on how to do it better. Please respond, I beg you!
None of this changes my opinion of baseball...I knew guys juiced...all of America did. I've certainly suspected Bagwell might have. I don't know. But that doesn't change the fact you're trolling.
For most people, there's a clear line between legal and illegal. I'm sorry if that's not the case with you, but I can promise you, with me and a lot of people there is. Yeah, it pretty much is. You were correlating Bagwell's injury with steroid use, which is an argument that could be made for any player to ever go on the DL. So now I'm a kid? You might be able to do it when there's no bias at hand, but you're off the charts here.
Trolling? this is a thread about Bagwell's steroid use - it's not a thread about how great teh Astros are or your favorite childhood memories. There's obviously a few people out there who are going to take any bit of evidence against him and dismiss it - maybe THEY're the ones who are trolling - maybe they should stay out of non-positive threads about their childhood heros.
and heroes, and golly-gee co-inky-dink, or whatever you said. Just because someone demands proof (real proof, not bullcrap and assumptions), does not make him a "hero worshipper." I'll direct you again to the best response I've ever seen from someone who thinks Jeff Bagwell may have juiced, but doesn't buy the ridiculous crap spewed by the typical Internet BBS dweller: And again, more succinctly (and just as accurately): It's perfectly legitimate to have suspicions, but to point to all this crap that SamFisher points to and raise his hands victoriously claiming he's proved it is "moronic", as he said earlier.
It wasn't even an exaggeration. It was taking his argument to its logical end. A good and valid way to exploit an invalid argument.
I've been a lawyer long enough to know that the "clear line" is not even remotely true in most cases (particularly with regard to andro - there were a number of articles about it at the time) In fact that is why I have a job. Anyway answer my question - you want ot play the logic game - so answer the one that was posed regarding use of andro. Andro users more or less likely to have used other steroids than a non-andro user? I say more, and I don't find this unreasonable. You claim I'm insane to do so - prove it. fact: players use steroids & other substances to recover from injuries more quickly. Accordingly - saying "well he just stopped lifting weights because of injuries, not because he stopped roiding out" has very little probative signficance - it doesn't mean that he used them, but it certainly doesn't exonerate him. You blew this up into "everybody who is injured uses steroids" - that's not even close.
You're the only one bringing up childhood memories here, sam. I'm certainly not. You keep playing that card. Maybe that's what makes it seems so trollish. You never post in Astros related threads. Your only baseball posts I can remember are about steroids.
My false statement that everybody who is injured used steroids? The statement that I never made? All I said was that chalking up "well he's just having some injuries" as a sign of the absence of steroid use does not work, given that steroids are used to treat injuries
it is almost as pleasing as the "well here in NYC we ....." card. People in Texas LOVE lawyers from NYC, especially when they are telling us how we should do things.
Congratulations, Sam! You get it!! The shoulder injury and the loss of muscle that happened immediately after Bagwell gave up and had surgery neither exonerate him nor prove that he did it. Well stated, indeed. "It doesn't mean that he used them."
