bagwell is steroid free david carr could have been great, the franchise ruined him roger clemens is a great houstonian (who also didn't do steroids especially while playing for houston) drayton loves the fans -----> edit: i'm smart because i don't think lidge's problems were mental and I know more baseball than you (my personal favorite)
Please find who stated that and let me know, thanks. Touché! Of course, those who were saying that have since recanted, unlike the other drivel which baselessly and amazingly lives on. Who in the hell is saying that???? I don't remember anyone saying that, either. Indeed, a common logical error is to misrepresent the other argument and attack the misrepresentation. Commonly referred to as a strawman. Outstanding work here; you've built five of them! Your best strawman yet. Just because someone argues vehemently for or against something does not mean he sets himself up as "smarter than" or "knowing more than". I'm sorry if you took my post personally. I had no individual poster in mind; I was thinking only of the themes that get oft repeated on sports radio and on Internet BBSs which are, frankly, stupid.
So, no one ever said that Drayton was cheap? No one ever accused the Astros of racism? No one ever said Lidge's problems were "mental"? Not only do those things exist, but they've been repeated ad nauseum in the sports fans' media (and, sadly, by some "journalists"). I went off on a tangent, but it was no strawman. If my post pissed you off, just say so. I already apologized once.
I am reasonably certain that Lidge's problems had a mental aspect to them. How large a role they played, you guys are right, I can't say for certain. I do think these guys have to have a certain mindset to perform at this incredibly high level. Lidge's fastball is 40mph faster than mine, and probably couldn't even foul it back if it were straight as an arrow. But there are a lot of guys who throw almost that hard, so the differences between the ones who are marginal and those who are great is small. I am just saying that mindset might be one of the little factors that add up. I'm sure they are all professionals and do their best and ability trumps everything else. But as an amateur actor, I know a little something about body language, and when Hoffman was on, and "Hell's Bells" was playing and the Astros looked like they were second graders about to have their lunch money taken by a 5th grader on the walk from the on deck circle to the batters box...they certainly didn't HELP their chances. Far as the other statements go Drayton isn't "cheap" per se. But he tends to only opens the wallet for flashy signings, not something like scouting, or adding depth to the bullpen, and this kissing up to Selig by never paying over slot has to go, if we are gonna turn this thing around. The Astros aren't racist, to me Bob Watson as the first African American GM sort of trumps having a marginal Glen Barker type as your 25th man. As far as we should have drafted VY...my signature will stand as my comment on that subject.
i'm not pissed off no need to aplogize, its just the fact that you love to repeat these tenants in other threads, i.e. no need to bring up vy in an astros thread. secondly, believe me, i have heard plenty of times, i watch more baseball than you therefore i know lidge's problems aren't mental. clemens walked on water while he was an astro its just the arrogance of your side, as in saying i'm strawman and you're not.
Draw more fans = make more money. It's the same thing. He wasn't making enough money so he decided to sell. Who cares if he didn't want a new park? He still wanted more money. How is that better? At least when you ask for a new park, the city still has a team. When you sell the team and it ends up moving, there's no team. I don't think Bud Adams can guarantee a Super Bowl, so I'm not sure that's relevant. However, that is a lot of money; much more than I assumed/remembered it was. Even so, why not work the repayment of the rest of the 65M into a new deal? Since Houston renovated the Dome in '87 for the Oilers, they have to stay there 30 more years? Would you expect McLane to still be playing in the Dome if that had been the Astros?
The VY bullet-point was a joke; check your sarc meter. I included it for that very reason (people used to bring it up all over the place). Really? I have no idea how much baseball you watch. What I've said, and others, is that from watching him pitch, you can tell certain things that stats don't tell you. I'm sorry if this is offensive to you, but it is what it is. If arrogance means disagreeing with someone else and not backing down, then we are *both* guilty as charged. As far as the strawman thing, two points: --Your argument was a strawman, not you. I didn't call *you* a strawman (that would be stupid). --Your five points *were* a strawman; my post was *not*. I'm sorry if that seems "arrogant" to you, but it's a simple fact. The part of the post you quoted was obviously a sidebar, not meant to support or tear down any argument. Call it a tangent. Call it arrogant. Call it unnecessary. Call it "derailing". But it wasn't a strawman.
Obviously you think it's exactly the same thing. I can't explain why I think it's different any more than I already have. Bud came with a plan that was a farce to begin with. A multi-purpose dome. Thank God we didn't build a multi-purpose Dome downtown for a pro basketball team that didn't want to play there to begin with. At the end of the day, Bud didn't have anyone stick up for him here because he spent his entire career and life here burning relationships. I would far prefer to have the Oilers still here, I think. But that ship sailed so long ago I can barely remember it.
that is dead on as far as Bud goes, lets not forget Lanier had his hands in that mess as well When the Texans start winning I think it will end up being better ie. Tailgating, better stadium, one of the best owners in sports a chance to build a winning tradition. If the Texans can average 10 wins a season for 10-15 years with a super bowl or two it will help erase the fact the Oilers never won anything and as far as a bad first 6 seasons for the Texans it was an expantion team so if they win it's a free pass. Point of rant is the Oilers did not have a winning tradition luv you blue and run and shoot were fun but winning super bowls are better. Bum wore a Cowboy hat and a Pearl Snap but Kubs will look better in a golf shirt if we win a super bowl
I think Lanier was certainly less than objective. But I'm not sure he had much to work with. After Bud threw out the multi-purpose Dome thing he signed the exclusive to deal only with TN. That was it. The county offered up the open-air stadium and it was quickly rejected....and had to be, because he had already inked a deal with TN. It was over. So as much blame as Lanier takes, I'm not sure there was much that could be done. I think Bud was probably embarassed by the Rockets, frankly. He pitched it as if they were on-board...and Alexander's response was, "we haven't talked about it and we're not interested anyway." That killed Bud here. Nail in coffin. So ultimately the "deal" Bud was offering up was illusory anyway...it wasn't real.
i know it was a joke, but you're the first person to get all huffy and puffy when someone mentions, so I would suggest you follow your own advice and not touch the subject, even as a joke really, i'm not just talking you or i, the "joke" was about the forum, I'm responding to the forum in general, so was the vy a joke or not? you're all over the board
So, you're pissed that I made a joke about VY? M'kay. I'm sorry. I'm not sure where I've advised anyone to not touch the subject, but wherever this advice actually comes from perhaps I'll follow it, so as not to offend any more feelings.
no, i'm offended, that the person who gets so offended that houstonians love vy is always mentioning vy
Does anybody have any images of the "Bud-dome?" I remember seeing it on the local news (this is just at the onset of the WWW era), and how the entire endzone panel of seats came forward to convert the stadium for basketball. At the time, I thought it was pretty cool... but looking back on it now, I realize that a.) it probably would have been structurally difficult to build so simply, b.) the upper deck seats for Rockets games would be horrible, and c.) It would currently be an eyesore downtown.
So he made an unrealistic proposal - who cares? You sit down and negotiate another one. You don't just say "no taxpayer money" while your city's team takes off.
Your complete lack of understanding regarding the situation is what's killing you here. "Proposal"? Try "demand". Negotiate "another" one? There was no negotiating on the first one. "No taxpayer money"? Um, Lanier offered him a $285 million dollar stadium paid for with...taxpayer money. Bud said, "This is what you will give me." Bud's plan for a multi-purpose dome was absolutely dependent on the Rockets and Les Alexander (who, by the way, had just won the only championships in the history of the city) agreeing to being his tenant in a horrible basketball venue. He NEVER even spoke to Alexander about it, just expected him to go along with it. And was all pissy about it when he didn't. How is that in any way similar to what Drayton did? Drayton pounded the pavement and got city leaders, the community and, most importantly, business leaders (the same ones Bud Adams made telling, "F off!", his life's work) behind the deal. As he always did, Bud expected everything to be given to him without him doing any heavy lifting. He could have originally been an equal partner with Hofheinz and the Astros in the Astrodome, but he would have been expected to contribute. He refused. Just wanted to be handed an equal share while Hofheinz and the Astros did all the work (and paid for everything). He's been pulling the same BS up in Nashpatch since Day 1. Read up on his Arena League team (which folded two years ago) and what he demanded from the city on THAT one. Again, read "Loser Takes All". It's stunning what a piece of garbage Bud Adams is as a businessman, a citizen and a human being. Bud demanded everything from everyone while refusing to even TALK to them (much less "negotiate") and got nothing. Drayton built relationships with anybody and everybody that mattered to negotiate his (successful) deal. How is that the same? Bud left while Drayton stayed. How is that the same?
Pretty difficult to do when the other party to negotiate can't negotiate back because he's signed an exclusive negotiating agreement with TN for 12 months.
I used to. I wrote a paper for technical writing about the bid. Somewhere I have the Coopers & Lybrand report prepared for the Oilers justifying the need for the new dome. It is completely wrapped around the assumption that the Rockets would be playing there, too.
He was forced to stay. He would have sold had he found the right deal. The difference here is Adams is horrible at PR. Bud's proposal was in early '94. Lanier spent all of '94 and most of '95 pounding his fist with the "no taxpayer money" mantra. Bud didn't open negotiations with Nashville until August of '95. To say Houston didn't have a chance is pure crap.
