As of right now, is Lin one of the worst starting PG's in the NBA?

I think the deferring thing is more to do with holes in his game, right now in this current setup he can only be efficient against certain defenses if his perimeter shot is off, so its better to let Harden go to work in those possessions. He really shouldn't be deferring to anyone else other than Delfino or Parsons when they're hot. But that's ok there's plenty of time to fix those holes as our backcourt production even when he and Harden are both only having OK games is still way better than most. Agree on confidence because that definitely has a big effect on his decision making.

 

I would just like to point out the fallacy of such a subjective (hard to quantify and based on generally elusive impressions) and confusing (no commonly agreed upon criteria) evaluation of the so-called point guards in the NBA, without questioning the motive for creating a poll like this in the first place.

First of all, just to be sure that we are comparing apple with apple, we need to make a distinction between the nominal PGs and the de facto ones. For example, is Mario Chalmers a real PG for the Heat when LeBron James and Dwyane Wade have been routinely bringing up the ball and making nearly all the plays, while he is relegated to be a shooter? Nominally James is the small forward and Wade the shooting guard, but when the two of them have the ball most of the time for every possesion, we must ask what percentage of time Chalmers really get to play as the PG. So should Jeremy Lin be compared with the nominal PGs or the de facto PGs? Or rather we should ask if Lin is a nominal or a de facto PG first?

Secondly when we evaluate which PG is worse or the worst of all, we need to compare them with the same criteria. But with the way this poll is conducted, there are no criteria that we have all agreed upon up front. For example, have we all agreed that we are comparing them based on their points per game (PTS) alone? Or their PTS plus assist per game (AST)? Or we should be looking at all the numbers that have been used to measure the effectiveness and efficiency of a PG, like their REB, STL, BLK, win share, EFF, etc?

Lin's PTS/REB/AST combined average of 22.2 is ranked at 21st of the league among all the star PGs. Steve Nash has exactly the same average of 22.2, while Mike Conley has 21.7 at 24th, Jose Calderon has 21.1 at 27th. Eric Bledsoe has 14.2 at 77th, and Ricky Rubio has 10.9 at 99th. If you add Lin's STL to this total, he will be even higher up because he ranks 3rd in the league with 2.0 after only Chris Paul and Mike Conley. So is Lin good or bad as a PG?

Would a PG with more double doubles than others be considered a better one like CP3 or Rondo? Lin has six so far this season and standing at 10th of the league. So is he a good enough PG or not? He could easily get two more double doubles if Sampson didn't bench him in two games we lost. He would easily be among the top 5 or 6 if he is allowed to have the ball more and have the front court that can catch the ball and put it into the basket.

Have we already agreed on the things that a PG needs to do to be called a real PG before putting these things into numbers or ratios for comparison?

Are bringing the ball up the court, passing it to the shooting guard (nominal SG but de facto PG) and running to a corner to wait for the ball as a spot up shooter the things a PG is supposed to do? Are we comparing all the so-called PGs, starting or not, on the list based on the same things they are doing at least 80% of the time? Should we be comparing Lin with those PGs that are asked to do the above-described things we all know Lin has been doing most of this season except for the game against the Spurs where Harden was out. Or do we know if there is even one other starting PG doing those things? If not, then are we comparing apple with apple?

And what about the intangibles? Did the Knicks get Jason Kidd and the Nets get Chauncey Billups for just their numbers?

Currently Lin has a usage rate of 19.3, while Harden has 27.5, the 7th among all positions. *Should we be comparing Lin only with those PGs in the league with the same usage rate? Or on top of that only with those PGs who also have some one (whether they are called SG, SF or whatever) playing the role of a PG next to them with a 27.5 usage rate (and thus have been taking away their time and the ball to perform as the PG)?

Looking from a higher level, is it really good for the Rockets' continuous winning of games when 40+ points have to come from Harden and Lin night in and night out under McHale's "system." The 7-game losing streak we just got out of should be enough proof that even when there was no injuries, the fatigue accumulated was enough to cause the low eFG% of almost every player on the team and the losing of the 7 games. Shouldn't we have more scoring from every one to fit in with the fastest-pace games of the league that the Rockets have been playing? Do we agree when your legs are tired, you would score less? In that sense would it be wise to demand 15+ PTS from Lin, assuming Harden is able to maintain his 25, and base Lin's evaluation solely on his PTS? Should we be ok with Lin's current 12.2 PTS if he can keep up with his 6.1 AST, 3.9 REB and 2.0 STL? Do we really have an effective way to get 15+ PTS from Lin immediately even if we want to? Especially when we are coming closer to a consensus that we should reduce both Harden's and Lin's playing minutes to keep them healthy. Would it become an immediate disaster if one or both of them got injured and had to sit for an extended period but we don't have other options? So would a more distributed scoring squad provide us with more insurance with our style of play?

And should we be comparing Lin only with PGs on teams with similar style of play?

We will only be wasting our time and energy if we just begin to argue with each other whether Lin is one of the worst starting PGs in the NBA before getting the above questions answered first.

 

If you are referring to his REB and AST by the other areas, then Rubio has a combined PTS/REB/AST of 10.9 and is currently ranking 99th among all guards.

Lin's PTS/REB/AST of 22.2 put him at 21st, and if you add his STL of 2.0 to the previous average, he will rank even higher since he ranks 3rd in the league after only Chris Paul and Mike Conley.

 

If anything the third option is going to take votes away from people who would vote yes because its supposed to be a joke directed to lin fans.

And btw do you really believe lin is better than lowry? Or your entire post is sarcasm that i didnt catch? I hope so

 

So has evey one on the team.

 

Taking into account salaries (what they get paid) this year (Jeremy Lin's salary this year is 5M) along with his performance (Career Lin WS/48 0.97 PER 16.1)

Rajon Rondo - yes, 11M salary

Deron Williams - yes, 16M salary

Jrue Holiday - no, he is only 3M salary, but I would take Lin over him. Holiday WS/48 0.81 PER 15.3.

Kyle Lowry - yes 6M salary

Derrick Rose - yes 16.4M salary

Kyrie Irving - 5.4M. Yes. His WS/48 is 0.127 and PER is 21.

Brandon Jennings - 2.5M, WS 0.94, PER 16.3. Maybe, especially considering the contract.

Mario Chalmers - No. 4M, 0.92 WS and 12.0 PER.

Jameer Nelson - 8.6M - yes, Nelson has been playing better. Bigger salary and 30 years age however.

John Wall - 6M. Debatable. Has been balling in the few games he's played this year, but small sample size (5 games). Has career WS/48 of 0.58 (terrible), though a respectable 16 PER.

Mike Conley - Maybe. 7.3M, 0.99 WS/48, PER 15.

Vasquez - No, WS/48 0.58 PER 14.

TP - yes, 12.5M.

Ty Lawson - yes probably, 1.7M, 0.134 WS/48 and PER 17.4. Current season he's playing badly though with a WS/48 of 0.72 and PER of 14.6

Ricky Rubio - No. 3.5M - he's playing awfully this year with a -0.019WS/48 and 8.0 PER. His season last year wasn't great either with a 0.70WS/48 and 14.6. Definitely a _downgrade_ compared to Lin.

Lillard - 3M. yes. Currently on WS/48 of 0.97 and PER 16.5

Westbrook -13M Yes.

Stephen Curry - 4M, Yes, with the proviso if Curry can stay fit.

Chris Paul himself -17M, duh yes.

Eric Bledsloe - 1.6M. Maybe. been playing well this year no doubt, but he has been playing mainly against second units. His WS/48 this year is 0.142 and PER 19.5, but whether he can sustain that against starters is doubtful given his career WS is 0.44 and PER is 13.1

Steve Nash - 9M - automatic yes if you're in a win-now mode. In longer term compared to Lin is a different story. His age is worrying, but his current season's WS of 0.141 and PER of 16.9 is great for a man his age. Other problems though are possible injury concerns and limiting his minutes.

Goran Dragic - WS/48 Maybe. His career WS/48 is 0.89, and PER 15.3, but he is playing better than Lin this year with a WS/48 of 0.11 and PER 17.3


TL;DR summary: only 11 which are definitely better, 7 maybes/situational, 4 no's. This is excluding other PGs which you excluded from your list, which presumably you thought were worse -

Brandon Knight
Darren Collison
George Hill
Jeff Teague
Kemba Walker
Luke Ridnour
Mo Williams
Monta Ellis
Raymond Felton.

so the count is 11 better, 7 maybe/situational, 13 worse.

Seems like Lin is an average starting point guard to me. He's also being paid like one which is fair enough.

 

Great analysis showing what Lin can do in terms of his scoring with his current skill set and ratios. This should be read together with my post on the next page for a more comprehensive evaluation of how good or how bad he really is among all PGs in the league.

 

Good information to help us evaluate if Lin is overpaid.

 

nice find dude!
i think we should give greg smith more shots too!
just think about this, greg can score at 64.2% right now, what if we give him the same amount of shots that harden take? we would have a superstar here!

 

Jarret Jack should also be on that list.

 

He's certainly close and I agree with Kwame that Jack should be on the list. He's much better then Lin this year. Lin is the new Matt Maloney

 

he is not the worst pg in nba, he is the worst pg in world

 

I really wonder how much you had to pay to get your positive reps...

 

i dont know if he deserves his salary or not but i cant say he is the worst pg . i think he has potential to grow up , he has just lack of experience and because of that playing bad lately . but i believe he can be better .

 

Why? Because he feels differently about Lin than you do?

 

I think this is the real issue. When sorting through this list...

... Lin looks about average. But when you see that his 3pt% is the worst, it points to the fact that he is being used unwisely. He's average in assists and points, top 5 in rebounds, top 3 in steals, but it's his glaring ineffectiveness from the 3 that really stands out in people's minds.

 

The difference between you and I is that I'm a Rockets fan. You simply worship a scrub point guard who in your eyes can do no wrong. It's the coaches fault he can't hit a jumper and everyone who criticizes him is a racist hater. LOF fans are pathetic. Enjoy watching "Linsanity" in your mothers basement with a bottle of lube. Lol at caring about rep points on the internet. You can have all of mine if you want.

 

Harden scores more efficiently so we need him to shoot more not less

 

No you're just a weirdo.

AND no but Lin is probably 2nd or 3rd last. Just ahead of Dragic.

 

agree 100%