I would say both players needed decent help to win championships. There are very few instances of players "winning it all" by themselves, the last of which occurence I would say was the Dream and the 93 Rockets. I also think that Kobe is highly overrated if people are making serious comparisons to MJ. I always thought MJ was an arrogant SOB and disliked him, but he averaged more than Kobe in a MUCH tougher era of defensive play in the league. I feel like the league nowadays is designed to let guards with great skill thrive; whereas before, in the handchecking era, the greats thrived amid much tougher physical play and less strict rules about defensive strategies.
But at the same time that's not fair to say. Back when MJ played zones were not allowed to be used in the league as well. Granted that the one on one play was tougher and dirtier but at the same time anyone who's played against a man to man defense knows that great players can exploit it all day long with defensive switches, mismatches and pure skill. Do you really think if a team was forced to play Kobe straight up man to man with no zone defense they could survive all game long? The players are softer but it is in no way easier to score in this day and age than it was 15 years ago. I'm pretty sure games average less ppg then they used to.
Jordan didn't face a strict man-to-man defense either. From what I remember, even though it was technically man to man, there was a lot of sagging help defense. You can check youtube for videos where Jordan faces zone defense.
1. Magic Johnson 2. Michael Jordan 3. Wilt Chamberlain 4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 5. Larry Bird 6. Oscar Robertson 7. Hakeem Olajuwon 8. Kobe Bryant 8. Shaquille Oneal 9. Bill Russel 10.Tim Duncan My list off the top of my head, I could be neglecting someone obvious. Honorable mention- John Stockton, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Isiah Thomas. I think Lebron James (projecting longevity for his career, could end up being that kind of talent. Same probably goes for Durant)
Right, because the Sonics weren't allowed to play zone against us either. Go watch the Bulls play the Pistons or Knicks and then come back and say with a straight face that MJ didn't face zones. The majority of teams in the league don't run a zone defense. And if I were a ballplayer, I would rather face a zone than have handchecking and bigs that are allowed to flagrant foul me all game long and get away with it.
Great post, i've said it before as good as Kobe is and no doubt he is great. He is still nowhere remotely close to MJ.
Been out of town for a few days, so haven't read the entire thread, so I hope my points haven't already been made... First, let's have a little historical perspective... Kobe is not quite Top 10. He has built on the giants of the game and he has refined his game to an incredible degree, but he has not changed the game or the perception of the game or revolutionized his position. I would argue you have to do at least one of those to be considered Top 10. Bird Magic Jordan Russell Wilt Kareem Dream Shaq Those are the easy ones. If you're picking in the All-time draft, how can you really pick Kobe ahead of any of those guys? You might argue Russell, but that would be a comparison between disparate eras and no way is Kobe knocking Russell (with all those championships) off the list. My ninth guy is Dr. J. He was Jordan before Jordan. Everyone wanted to be like Dr. J and he was a big reason for the NBA-ABA merger. Without him, Larry and Magic aren't as huge and subsequently, neither is Jordan or the NBA. Julius changed the perception of professional basketball and made it extremely cool. Oscar's my #10. How can you average a triple double for a season and not be in the Top 10? For what he did for the game and the center position, I'd probably put Mikan at 11 and then Jerry West at 12 for similar reasons. Moses, the consensus 6th Best Ever Center goes to #13. Right now, I'd consider Kobe in the 14-16 range. But... that's based on my criteria. I can't quibble that much with him being 9 or 10. Anything above that though is just flat out wrong and shows me you young whippersnappers don't care to learn.
The fact that he was a perennial loser until he played with a Young Kareem might be one reason. And the fact that the only thing he never did was post up great stats is another. Though you cannot really blame Oscar since he played in an Era of Russell vs Wilt, one of the greatest rivalries ever. Putting Oscar in the Top 10 is overrating Oscar in my opinion, you should put in Moses Malone there instead. Also, Duncan is easily Top 10 in my opinion.
They are a fringe playoff team I think. When you consider the softness of some of Kobe's supporting cast.....
When you ain't winning games. Yes, me and 4 kindergarten kids can go against Celtics and we'd only lost 0-9. It's one way to say your opponents are good, or another way, your team were really bad. Don't forget those bulls teams didn't have winning record in regular season. They didn't deserve to be in playoff in the first place. And Celtics ain't responsible for their sorry record.
When MJ's best opposition was the likes of R.Miller (Ray Allen), Payton (skilled defender like Kidd but just too short 6"4), Richmond (can score but no business in defending). It's just cake walk for MJ. Give me a defender who can match Artest or Bowen in their prime? And MJ did score 37 ppg, when the league averaged 109.9 ppg. To put it in perspective, recent Suns, in their best offensive season, scored 110 per game. We've heard how MJ went against tough Pistons and Knicks defense. That might be true for a few games, but for the majority of the games, it's all about fastbreak and soft defense. And MJ went against slow white midget in daily base. No doubt he'd got inflated numbers. You don't have to believe me. Let's check how the best team in the league Celtics guarded MJ in his famous 63 pts playoff game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69vkEcc-zfc A slow white midget with exclusive single coverage out of paint. Some just don't understand NBA players didn't make much money at that time and best athletics and international players didn't join NBA. Athleticism vastly improved thanks to MJ and Stern making this league popular. And zone can contain single player much better. Check MJ's video from 96-98, you rarely see another defender in the scene when MJ backing down. That's not gonna happen today.
during MJ's time defenders were allow to hand-check. post-MJ, hand-checking is a foul on the defender.
While it's true that today's wings are better defensively, it's no match for the decline in quality defensive big men, and for penetrating wings like Kobe/Jordan, that's a huge advantage for Kobe. Also, during Jordan's day, physically inferior wings could offset their shortcomings through the use of the handcheck. Kobe has had to face the likes Dikembe, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Chandler, Okafor, Duncan, Dwight Howard, Yao, and Jermaine O'Neal. Compare this to the defensive bigs that Jordan faced: Olajuwon, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, Dikembe, Garnett (his early years), Robert Parish, Mark Eaton, Bill Laimbeer, Rik Smits, and Moses Malone. Do you really think that it was a cake walk for Jordan?
He coughed up a 3-1 lead in the playoffs to a team that was probably equally talented to his squad or maybe less talented. He shot 35% in the 2004 NBA Finals. Two things right there that it's really hard for me to overlook when trying to rank him with the true greats of the game.
He's probably in the 12-15 range right now....but when its all said and done, he'll most likely be in the top 5 unfortunately....
Dumars, Maxwell, Moncrief, Robertson, Cooper, Dunn, DJ, Pressey, Sprewell, McMillan. Hardly a cakewalk. That Jordan went off on all these guys at times is much more a testament to Jordan than a slight to the defense played at the time.
Dumars is a 6-3 midget, no business in defending 6-3 wing, and MJ mentioned Dumars was the toughest he's against. Today's swingman will just pull up like he's not there, when was the last time any team used a 6-3 guy to defend Kobe? Actually, most teams used SF to defend Kobe today, to deny his post plays, and to contest jumpshots as much as possible. If Kobe penetrates, there's still bigmen to help. And zone makes help defense so much easier. Before, Bulls would run 2-3 or 1-4 ISO, 4 defenders were forced on the weak side and see MJ went on one one, it's not possible to send a help defender before he stepped in the paint, already too late. Now back to handcheck, handcheck is a rule preserved for Wade and LBJ. I don't actually see it called regularly for other players, particularly in playoff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4 I don't think handcheck was called at all in that series. Or you'll hear whistle in every other possession.
