If you don't easily rate Kobe among the top ten, you don't know Basketball. This is a player who wont titles with another dominant player, then had pretty much that entire team taken apart, and came back and won another title with a team built entireley around him. Then you have to look at Shaq. For all the talk that Kobe was the bad guy....every team Shaq has been to, he has left on bad terms. You can hate the guy for his personality, thats fine. But the guy is a legend, there is nothing in the game he hasnt achieved and the scarey thing is that he has at least half a dozen years left!
you guys are krazy kobe is perhaps top 10 right now. No way he cracks top 4, maybe top 5 when its all said and done. 1.MJ 2.Wilt 3. Oscar Robertson 4. Bill Russel no way he supplants one of those 4 and i love kobe.
We've all seen how well he's done with crap players around him (nothing), based on talent I think he is top 10, but he can't get it done himself (as proven when he didn't have a go to big man).
MJ slapped Kerr in practice. And he slapped another teammate in early years. Compared to that, Kobe is a model teammate.
What had MJ done before he got Pippen. He went 1-9 in playoff, and 2 of those years he had Oakley, the rebounding champion who could grab 15 rebounds a game, that alone is better help than Odom. I say Kobe makes more with less in that perspective.
I say yes and possibly top 5 when if he can continue to be dominant into well into his 30's a la MJ. As of right now, the only two people I can think of that can be placed above him without any debate being possible are MJ and Magic. (11 rings between the two of them as the most important piece pretty much says it all) Anyone else is fair game. ** Russel - stacked team, limited offense, less athletic era Wilt - "man among boys", lack of team success Shaq - inability to finish games due to fatigue/ free throw shooting Dream - success relatively late in career, "only" 2 rings came during MJ's hiatus (I know the full story, no need to jump down my throat I'm pointing out the arguments that can be made) Jerry West - less athletic era, lack of team extended team success Oscar Robertson - see above Kareem - played with Magic and the Big O Moses - only one ring, faded into obscurity toward end of career Duncan - was never at any point in his career the best player in the game. Amazingly consistent, but with a relatively low peak. Only beat one good team in the finals (pistons). Right now I'd rank it 1. MJ 2. Magic (if he never had to retire early the early 90's would be way different IMO) 3. Kareem 4. Wilt 5. Shaq/Dream/Duncan/Russell 9. Kobe ** I don't really like comparing modern players to anyone before 1980 because to me the game was so much different than it is now. And of course I never got to see those guys play.
Its very comparable, the teams they had. They both carried a band of scrubs into the postseason. -Jordan scored 35-37 PPG on a team with Oakley for a low seed -Kobe score 35 PPG on a team with Odom for a low seed. The difference- -Jordan played the Boston Celtics twice. The '86 Celtics is considered one of the greatest teams ever. The next year the Celtcs werent too shabby either. -Kobe lost to the Suns twice. The Suns never made it to the Finals, and the Suns were the Spurs postseason play toys. -Doug Collins was Jordan's coach. The great Phil Jackson was Kobe's coach. -So Jordan had the tougher opponent and lesser coach. Kobe had the easier opponent and way better coach. But would those Jordan teams be able to beat those Suns teams? Probably not...shouldnt diminish much of anything, just an observation.
Hell, Jordan won only 1 game out of 10. It doesn't matter how good your opponents are. He barely won any. Kobe at least won 4 out of 12, and was only one rebound short of advancing in the first year. I don't mean to say Kobe's better than MJ here. But MJ doesn't really earn any edge over Kobe without decent help.
Jordan's '86 team they had Jordan, George Gervin in his last year, Oakley, and Orlando Woolridge who was like a Caron Butler type for them. Jordan was hurt all year, only played 20-something games. But they maybe could have given the Celtics a tougher contest...though again its arguably the best Celtics team ever and overall one of the best ever. They went 40-1 at home that year, of course home court advantage makes it 1 sided. In saying quality of teams dont matter, excluding his rookie season consider that for 5 straight seasons Jordan lost to teams that eventually went to the Finals or WON the finals each of those years. 3 of the 5 won the title. Once the Bulls got passed the titans of their conference, supremacy was theirs. Thats why they continued to make mince meat of the competition afterward. The best Larry Bird team and Bad Boy Pistons made the Jordan Bulls battle tested. Yes agree, without a doubt they both needed help Splitting hairs on this
I just want to point out that you're comparing the accomplishments of a developing Jordan to a prime Kobe. So in that respect, the fact that you're even comparing them gives Jordan the edge.
Wow, totally disagree. You can't possibly compare Kobe in his prime and younger day playing on an often very talented and well-coached Lakers team with notable players, like Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Shaquille O'Neal, Elden Campbell, Rick Fox, Glen Rice, Dennis Rodman, and later Karl Malone and Gary Payton. Even in the post Shaq years, that team did have Lamar Odom and Caron Butler. His supporting cast has been very much above average compared to most superstar wing players, Dominique never had cast like that, nor did Pistol Peter, Rick Barry, Tracy Mcgrady, or George Gervin. I'd even point out Rick Barry more so, because he appeared in the Finals couple of times and carried some poor team a slightly above average team to NBA Finals victory. Also, they probably played a Phoenix team that they should've beaten with 3-1 advantage with no Amar'e Stoudemire or a center . . . or semblance of a front line. At that point, you could say the Lakers were somewhat more talented in than Phoenix in 05-06. So, I'd say that Kobe only played on a mediocre team for at best two years in his career. While, Jordan's teams were probably more comparable to LeBron's Cavs team. Where only a pretty talented player could take to the playoffs. Also, it's almost a fallacy to say MJ couldn't get to the 2nd round of the playoffs with Pippen, when in actuality, Pippen wasn't even near the level he'd become later, an inexperience -non-starting rookie averaging a mere 7 points a game. Those Chicago (in the beginning of the Jordan years) teams were often overmatched at every other position, except shooting guard. In 87-88, the Bulls second highest scorer only average 13 ppg. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1988.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan How is Kobe better than a player that has a superior scoring average to him in the regular season, playoffs, and NBA Finals, while that same player averaged more rebounds, more assists, higher FG%, beaten and played against better teams, won more games in the NBA Finals, has won DPOY, and won 5 MVPs/6 Finals MVPs (and remember Kobe only has 1 of each at this point)? Also, MJ's two worst NBA Finals performances are still better than Kobe's best two. #ell, Kobe didn't play all that well against the Nets, Pistons, and Celtics and was none factor in a few games against the Pacers. Also, MJ's first 5 years as an NBA thrashes Kobe's best 5 years across the board, fairly easy. #ell, that man was dominating the post, like a center on offense. Arguments come out like "he has scored 81 points" and "scored 50 in 4 straight games" ...and he has a better shooting range than Jordan. The first two are true, and third is very possible, but there is more to the game than that, again especially when MJ was much more efficient with the ball. Nowitzki has better shooting skills and range than both, Tim Duncan and Karl Malone, does that really make him a better player? I could easily counter with MJ averaged 37 ppg for an entire season, had another season where he averaged 32 ppg and 8 rebs/8ast to go along with, and six seasons where he averaged over 50% FG and career average of .497 FG%. Has averaged 30.1 ppg and nearly 50% shooting for his entire career, as Kobe has never shot over 47% in his career and has only average at least 30ppg ... 3x. Let's not even mention M.J.'s postseason numbers, especially in the almighty scoring that some people hold so dearly to what would make Kobe better than MJ. MJ's scoring numbers in the playoffs even dwarfs Wilt Chamberlain at his best. Then other arguments make absolutely no sense, as in that Kobe never went to college, when MJ did, which somehow equated MJ had some type of advantage. You would think being in the NBA for 3 or 4 more years would give on player an advantage over another player who has not played any kind of professional level players in an official game unless you include the Olympics. If players are learning more in college than the NBA, then what does that say about the quality of NBA coaching and fundamentals. Yet, you have this 20-something year old rookie come to the fledgling Bulls in his first season, average 28 ppg almost 7 rebounds and 6 assist a game, and he takes them to the playoffs every year of his career. I will firmly say no, Kobe doesn't compare to MJ in that regard, either. I don't understand it, why people can't see that?
Simply the best post post of this entire thread...not one of those assertions made above can be refuted because the rely on something objective called "facts" which in this case is clear statistical evidence.
I know basketball just fine. I know a great big typically has a bigger impact than a great wing. I know the following 6 bigs had more of an impact than Kobe (Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone). You can make the same argument for Duncan, who also won with two completely squads...just he was the primary option on each team. MJ has accomplished more than Kobe in less time. Give me those two guys with the 20-10-7 averages (Magic and Bird). That's 10 dudes right there. Kobe in easily....I think not.
He took a sorry team to the 1st round and lost, the same thing Kobe did when he had a crap supporting cast. AAnd if you think Oakley is better than Odom....well that's just funny.
Great post. Unfortunately, the Kobe crowd doesn't care that MJ had better numbers/awards because per them, he played in an easier era against midgets and poor defenses. LOL
