right. But gasol is no where near shaq status, but he does still get double teamed a lot in the post. When he is in the low post with the ball, more often than not, a help defender would come. I guess the game of basketball is about keeping the ball out of the paint. Look at kobe now, defenders tend to guard him 1on1 on the perimeter, only when he drive does a help defender come. But that happens to all perimeter players (even AB). I would argue that an average center would be double more often than a great perimeter player. No one in the NBA can honestly say that they can stop kobe 1on1 most of the time. But teams still don't double kobe imediately when he has the ball. but look at yao (who i don't think is even near prime shaq/kobe status in terms of dominance) will get doubled imediately when he has the ball in the post. while tmac would tend to be played 1on1, although really tightly. I just don't think how opposing teams play defence will determine who is leading the team.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant/career_stats.html Check is season and playoff stats and tell me if that is riding to championships. People just hate the guys so the said he rode his way to three rings. Hakeem was the most dominant player when we won back to back, but clyde did he ride to a championship cuz of hakeem? Shaq was the most dominant player during the lakers runs too but i do no think that he could have done it without kobe. I give credit where credit is due, kobe top 10 of all time as of right now? Yes, but at the 9 or 10 spot.
my top ten in no particular order hakeem wilt magic mj bird kareem duncan oscar robertson shaq russell this is just strictly my personal opinion but if grant hill didnt have his ankles mess up his entire prime basketball career (basiically 27-34) i think he may have gotten top ten consideration...he may not be as prolific a scorer as kobe is but the guy was like the next coming of the Big O/Bird as a triple double just waiting to happen. its a shame injuries took away what could have been kobe is probably in my top 15
I hate the Lakers as much as anyone, but I think people do not appreciate just how great a player Kobe is. I feel very comfortable putting him ahead of Shaq and Malone. There is no 2-guard in the history of basketball that I would rank ahead of him other than Jordan, period. He has no weaknesses in his game, and anytime he does discover a weaknesses, he relentlessly works to eliminate it. Definitely in the top 10, no question.
All opinions here vary - and that's good. I guess it really depends on how you measure greatness and then that manifests to your top 10 list. Personally, greatness to me is defined by a player is: The pure SKILL or DOMINANCE that the player had to impact the game with (IMO Kobe is one of the most skilled and offensively dominant players this game has seen, an offensive arsenal that to me is unmatched, array of skillsets that Kobe has just keeps improving and still is , not to mention he has glimpses where he shows the same tenacity and dominance on defense) Individual Success Finally getting a Finals MVP this year, and his MVP he got in 08... Numerous scoring rampages, including an 81 which some consider as the most prolific scoring game (over Wilt's 100), then we mention the buzzer-beaters, the many stretches where he just seems UNHUMAN, and the for this decade, his assassin-like scoring and suffocating defense have been on full display. Team Success 4 Championships. 6 Finals trips. His first one as an alpha dog last season, but don't discredit his role in his first three because he was just as essential to them as Shaq was. A Kobe Bryant led team always feared by most just because of the damage most know he is capable of doing on a given night I think at this point, Bryant’s on court performance certainly warrants all-time great chatter. And the most mind-blowing thing is.. He and his team are still on top and he can add so much more to an already amazing basketball resume and to his impact he's had on the game.
So if we're gonna focus on the failures of great players: Magic lost in the Finals 4 TIMES. Shaq swept out of 95 Finals MJ lost 3 consecutive times to the Pistons. Do these roadblocks discredit or demean their greatness?
Yes, but BARELY. No. 10 or 9 at the MOST. Any higher than that and you are a homer sipping some kool-aid. At the same time, I would say he only rode Shaq to one title, the one in 2000, though he was still indispensable there too. In the 2nd and 3rd playoff runs to the Laker titles his playoff averages were 29, 7, 6, and then 27, 6, 4. Many players have led their team to a championship averaging much worse than that. He was essentially a first option player that was eclipsed by a force that just happened to be even more dominant in Shaq. Calling him second fiddle is a bit disingenuous. It may be true but in the context of playing with prime Shaq, there are maybe 4 or 5 players ever who could have avoided the same description. I also agree that no matter what, Kobe will never eclipse Shaq in all-time ranking. Just won't happen.
After looking at it again, I would argue that his playoff average in the 2009 title season was actually worse than his 2001 playoff season as a second option. 2009 playoffs as leader: 30ppg, 6apg, 5rpg, 46%fg 2001 playoffs as 2nd fiddle: 29ppg, 6apg, 7rpg, 47%fg
Top 15-20 maybe. The legends all surpass him for top 10 status. I would throw him on the outside looking in at the top 10 with players like Stockton, Malone, Wilkins, Thomas, Barry, etc.
I think a lot people don't see what Kobe has going for him or what hes has done. People always talk about his first three rings because he wasn't the best player on that team which is true, but three rings is three rings no matter how you put it. Hell the big O only has one and for that one he wasn't the best player on his team I don't see people always bringing that up. Dude has been to six finals and has a great chance to go to many more before his career is over. I don't know where to rank him now but when is career is over he will be in the top ten hands down.
Since you asked: How many times did Magic play like garbage in the Finals? Also, care to look at the teams that he was losing to? Kobe has played like garbage in more Finals then he has played well in. And the only time he squared off against a team there with comparable talent, his team got destroyed. Not to mention the collosal choke in 2004 against Detroit. Shaq was swept out of the Finals by Hakeem, who was definately a better player at that time. He also didn't play like crap in that series. MJ wasn't playing like crap against the Pistons. He was going off but his supporting cast was doing things like playing poorly because of headaches. But when he finally won, he didn't lose again until he decided to hang them up, and that is pretty unique. And on a side note, in all those years where Detroit was kicking his ass (literally and physically), you never saw him quit on his team like Kobe did against Phoenix.
i ended up saying no. i don't really see any way to put him over MJ, the big 5 centers (my reservations about russell aside, he just won too much) or magic, and probably not bird. duncan and moses malone are a little trickier. with moses, you've got a 3 time mvp, and the key piece of the "fo' fo' fo' sixers" and a guy who apparently liked to whoop kareem head to head, but he gets talked about so little and his game always looks so ugly in highlights that it's hard to know how impactful he truly was. with duncan, kobe has been better offensively, but duncan has had more defensive impact and they've both had playoff series where their offense was made to look pedestrian against good defenses in a way i'm not sure any of the others (except russell) have but duncan's defense and rebounding didn't disappear at the same time. off topic, but duncan's struggles in one on one situations against defenders with length have shown up way too often and are why it's hard to put him any higher than 9th i think. playoff inefficiency is probably my biggest knock on kobe (along with bouts of being a petulant brat at times throughout his career). if you look at his true shooting percentage in the playoffs before the rule changes, they just aren't that good (2001 excepted). considering shaq was on most of those teams, it's probably not good to take that many shots that inefficiently. and considering those 3 titles are a big part of his resume, that also puts a little damper on them. he has made big strides in efficiency the last 4 playoff runs and his numbers from those are very good. and while he has been a good defender at times in his career (his all-nba defensive 1st team selections have been a joke for about 6 or 7 seasons), he can't compare to the big men in defensive impact. sorry, but perimeter guys are just at a disadvantage in this respect, and it really does matter and is why big guys get chosen over little guys all the time (even when it seems really stupid to do so). also, i don't think kobe has any extra gear we haven't seen at this point so he's either going to stay the same or decline for the rest of his career so i don't see much room for him to catch up to the others except duncan and moses. he could win some brownie points for longevity if he's still very good at 37 or something, but i don't know if that would do it (again, depending on how good, maybe duncan or moses). while kobe could win a couple more championships with this current team, i don't think it changes anything qualitatively because i think the other 10 guys could all win titles with this group of players as well. and then what do you do with guys like oscar robertson and jerry west? i have no real idea how to evaluate kobe against them, but i don't feel it's wrong to put him over either of those guys. and guys like karla (allow me to puke for a second) and barkley certainly put some impressive careers together and barkley especially has some awesome performances and seasons that make his peak possible top 10 material, but with kobe's title last year and general 4th quarter clutchness, we can give him the benefit of the doubt. and even if we give kobe the benefit over moses and slide him into 10, there's still the lebron problem. lebron's last few years are better than kobe has ever been and only longevity would keep lebron off the list at this point (there haven't been 10 people who have played better than he has 3 or 4 years running) so even giving kobe his benefit of the doubt on the current 10th place, he would just be holding lebron's place in the top 10 until another 3 or 4 years go by so i figured i'd just vote no.
Is Jordan in your top 10? Because if you are taking out people that are arrogant he shouldn't be. People like to talk about how Kobe was a bad guy and what not but he is no worse of a person or player(attitude wise) than Jordan. I've never heard of Kobe punching his teammates.
Um, Kobe has had skirmishes with teammates (it's been reported), got caught on video saying how much Bynum sucked, told the cops about Shaq and gave Gasol a face mash during a live game. I see your point but cmon now.
What I find funny is when fans/media/writers argue a player's greatness and somehow brings up whether or not the player was a saint or an ass on/off the court. Some of the greatest athletes in the history of sports are dicks someway or another.
Also I hate the Kobe riding Shaq argument. Shaq hasn't won anything without a dominant 2 guard on his team. At least Kobe was a huge factor in all four of his rings. Shaq RODE on D Wade's back for that last ring. If the refs weren't determined to call enough fouls to make the Heat win Shaq would be down one ring to Kobe. I'm really not convinced that Shaq would've won a ring with a guard of Pau Gasol's caliber. I like Pau a lot, he is a consistent all star player but not hall of fame caliber like D Wade if he stays healthy. Give me Kobe over Shaq any day of the week.
My point is that he is no worse than Jordan so I don't see how that warrants a cmon bc Kobe has done similar things as Jordan. Skirmishes aren't the same as punching Steve Kerr in the face. Most players get in skirmishes with teammates but punching the guy least likely to be able to defend himself in the face is a whole different level to me.
