Are Harden and Durant in a lower class than Kawhi, Lebron, and Curry?

Harden > curry

 

So who is?

First Class

Business Class

Super Economy Class

Economy Class

 

I think that people are confusing players with teams.
The real question is: can Harden win a championship if he has a roster like the Warriors?
Can Curry win if he has this Rockets team?
...
Same for Klay, Green: can they lead a team to the championship?

 

How about it's also...just...reality? If you want to reason by just considering if a player won a chip or not i'm just going to disagree. By your reasoning if Harden would sign with the Warriors and win he would be better than what he is now, i just refuse this.

Regardless, like i said in that post you quoted i don't think Harden should be immune to criticism, i didn't like few things he did out there in the last games, however that's not the whole story. The Warriors are more talent and that's a fact. Curry/Durant/Kawhi in Harden's place wouldn't have done a better job overall. So yeah, for me Harden shouldn't get a pass and i'm not giving it to him for the way he closed out the last two games, especially the last one, but you know, it's not necessarily all black or white.

 

Agreed but I feel folks talk about Harden 90% of the time no matter what.

I am feeling fatigue as Jim did in games, to even think about talking the same subject all over.

I feel James has to improve his movement off the ball at any cost, yet I am not eager to argue it out.

 

from what ive found... curry started playing in GS in 09'-10', klay started in 11'-12', draymond in 12'-13', iggy in 13'-14'....and kerr started coaching there in 14'-15' with his first record being 67-15 and a ring. so realistically....was kerr the reason these fools are great? bc the way i see it, they weren't anything without him.

also, with that said, i think putting curry next to bron and kawhi and even harden/kd is a joke.

 

I think he should just move a bit more, sometimes he does a cut to the basket, and most of times it works, it's just that he does that like one time in 2/3 games...i think doing something like that more frequently would already help a bit, of course i wouldn't expect him to turn into a JJ/Klay kind of player, it's not possible and wouldn't even make sense, but an occasional run behind a pick or cut to the basket wouldn't hurt when other players (Chris especially) handle the ball.

And he needs to be better in some moments, what happened in the final two minutes in game 6 just can't happen to a player like him, those two turnovers were killers, but not even because of the turnovers, that can obviously happen, it's the way how he turned the ball over there...for me that literally kills your team in terms of energy and mentality.

 

Curry doesn't win those titles without Draymond AND Klay Thompson.

 

The Spirit Airlines star player is... Isaiah Thomas (current one, not HOF version).

 

Lebron on his own tier but is slipping with his game declining. The rest are a tier below. Curry and Durant had to team up to take down lebron.

 

When you lose, you can always do more. The unfortunate reality is Harden has to play nearly flawless because of how much burden we place on him, his margin of error is smaller than any other player in the league so everything he does gets magnified.

I won't doubt his heart or desire to win like so many do. I see a guy that accepts the blame for losses and figures out a way to improve every single year. He was supposed to be a fringe All Star when we acquired him, a number 2 in need of a number 1, now he's a perennial MVP candidate. He pulled us from the trenches of mediocrity as a perennial 8-9 seed with the 14th pick to perennial championship contenders despite never having any lottery picks or All-NBA teammates.

Could he move off ball more? Sure, there's always things to improve on when you lose.

 

Check out his Unstoppable stats when he was back in OKC....the dude average less than 30% from 3s when playing in OKC. He can shoot from anywhere, but can he make them? People are dumb enough to give him the unstoppable tittle because he can shoot from anywhere. If that's the case. Yao ming would be unstoppable from anywhere. Noone can touch him while he shoot.

 

I get what your saying.

But do you really think if that series is played over and the warriors are up 3-1 and even if green still gets suspended for game 5 that the Cavs come back and win 3 in a row?

I don’t.

They hit the nba lottery and got extremely lucky.

Warriors were still up 3-1 for a reason.

And I’m a Lebron guy I think he’s the most talented player to even touch a basketball but he’s been blessed in certain situations.

What harden is doing and going through is almost identical to what Lebron went through his first stint in Cleveland.

Always had a top record and seed went to a few ECF and made atleast the 2nd round all
The time but could neve get over the hump.

It’s hard for me to think that Harden wouldn’t have a few championships if he was playing with HOF guys like wade and bosh or kyrie and love.

And put harden on GS in Curry’s Place? Wow that team steam rolls the league imo. Get to run pick and roll with green and have a truely elite all time great shooter in klay who’s big and can guard 1-3 plus iggy also.

It might look a little different but that would still be the best team in the league with ease.

And KD prob still comes because Harden and KD are really good friends.

Curry is an all time great.... so is harden but the talent gap they both play with is so drastic.

What if harden had dame Lillard and KAT as his 2nd and 3rd best players next to him. Does that not make houston pretty damn close to what GS has minus KD? I don’t think so. It would play and look different but the results would be trough the roof.

Dame would be what we want cp3 to do which is score 25-30 a game and give harden relief. KAT would give both a change or pace with his post game and the ability to stretch the floor from the center spot and he can still rebound at a high level.

I’d truely like to see harden get to play with another Allstar in his prime. We haven’t seen that yet in Houston.

And with all that said he’s had the most success against the best team in the league and regardless what you think GS is at worst is one of the top 5 best team of alltime.

 

There are virtually no superstars in NBA history who are good for 100% of important series. Kawhi was garbage in Game 1 of ECF. Curry routinely disappears against the Rockets. Lebron has laid eggs. Durant has laid eggs. This is a silly strawman. You don't need a flawless player to lead a championship team.

Harden can be the leader of a championship team. When you compare his career before superstars to other champions' careers before superstars, he is better or the same. The things you are pointing to would have been true of every championship star before playing with stars. Of course he literally has not done it yet. He has never had a cast better than Lebron, Curry or Durant's championship seasons.

 

Winning’s winning. Harden is good enough to do it but still has to do it.

 

Pretty interesting how bad the warriors are when Curry sits. Yes Green is great, but thinking he's the reason they are winning or that they can't win without him is crazy.

@NateSilver538
If you look at the on/off stats, what emerges is not so much that the Warriors are better off without Durant (they're almost certainly better WITH him) but that Curry is much better than Durant.



@NateSilver538 4m4 minutes ago
Here are the 3-way numbers with Klay Thompson. While Curry and Durant play well together, and Curry and Klay play well together, Durant and Klay don't play so well together. In fact, Curry + Durant lineups are actually a bit better with Klay off the court.

 

Exactly, Durant struggled in the playoffs as well. He only plays well in Golden State because they are so stacked (and not so well when Curry sits). He definitely is not in the Lebron/Curry or even Kawhi tier.

 

So then Curry has no excuse for putting up worse numbers than Harden this series, go figure and playing badly with Durant in the lineup gives him no excuse(LOL i cant believe i even have to say that). And none of these numbers even talk about Draymond, here is a good video showcasing how important Draymond is.
I hated watching this.

Durant(everyone has struggled in the PO at some point) has played well in the playoffs though, he made the finals and put up great numbers against the Heat team. And for the record Durant is MUCH MUCH more proven than Kawhi. And Lebron/Curry/Durant/Kawhi are NOT in a different tier than Harden, i do not believe it.

 

Those numbers aren't looking at individual box score but the impact on the whole team. Even if curry doesn't shoot well, teams are trapping him letting Dray go 4 on 3 or sticking to Curry giving Durant easy driving lanes. That's what that tweet proves. The team ORTG goes to crap when Curry sits.

Secondly, that video you posted say Green is the Warriors SECOND most important player. Guess who is first? Curry. That puts Durant as the THIRD most important player. Kawhi, btw, has a Finals MVP.

 

Oh really? So Curry shooting poorly doesnt have an impact on the team? It would be the same for every great offensive player, you think teams even think of trapping Harden EVER if we have Draymond, no absolutely not. No metrics about Draymond's effect on defense per usual. Ive never said I think Durant is better actually but HE IS a top 4 player(at least) and if you are shooting like crap with him on the floor with you than thats still on you. Curry played worse than Harden this series, that is the truth, Harden had better numbers. Yea Durant being on the Warriors allows him to go one one effectively with other teams, no doubt. Hes a great offensive player, thats not a surprise, Draymond's role in defense however dwarfs Curry's.

Ok???? So what, Curry is a great player who HAS FOUR all Nba players playing with him(one of them being Kevin Durant LOL). You think that doesnt help him???? So what, even that is true(which is HIGHLY HIGHLY debatable) your own numbers show they are a BETTER TEAM with Durant. So whats Steph excuse for playing poorly. Oh lol we are playing the no context game alright, Durant has 2 finals MVPs.