Any way you look at it, this season has been a complete waste of time

Great last post Cabbage.

Mobley just doesn't understand the passing game to do it without thinking about it. There are a lot of teams that need a scorer like Mobley. Teams that don't have a Francis quality player that can do more with the ball.

I disagree with the thought of trading Griffin. I continue to see spots in the game where he shines. I still think that Griffin will be an elite player in this league. But, he will have to sit on the sidelines more than run the court for two more years.

Regarding Rudy Tomjonovich, I want to disagree with you, but I don't have a leg to stand on exept my loyalty to his brilliance in motivating a hopless Hakeem led team back in 1993. That's got to be worth something "Loyalty for 10 years". I'd give him 1 more year.

Posey is the ideal 7th man on this team. He brings energy to the team when he's on the court. But, he just lacks so much in his offensive game. His 3 point shot is lousy. As a matter of fact his shooting overall seems lousy to me. If it wasn't a dunk or a layup, I was on pins and needles as the tragectory of the ball scratched the air above the court.

 

While many overestimate our talent, I just think HP and Freak are underestimating our considerable core talent (Francis, Yao & Mobley) and depth (quality through the 12 spot). I am not saying we should have won a playoff series or been a top 4 seed in the west, but I honestly believe we should have been ahead of Phx, and probably right with the Jazz for the 7th seed.

I have watched both the above teams quite a lot on league pass. Honestly, for most of this year Phx had two quality offensive players-Marbury and Marion. Amare was mainly a clean up man and benefited from a collapsing defense on the other two--but honestly he isn't the offensive low post in a set offensive that Mo Taylor is. Langhi, Johnson, Jacobsen, Voskel, Outlaw, Ameche--these were all guys getting major PT on Phx that make guys like Posey, MoT and Tmo look like vitage sharpshooting Run TMC. Somewhat similar situation with the Jazz. They had throwaway guys like Cheaney, Mark Jackson, Massenbreg, and their own soon to be thrown away guys like Ostertag, Padgett, Stevenson getting major PT. I am not saying Rice, MoT, Cato, Mooch, and TMo are great--but that is honestly a much better 2nd 5 than our chief competition.

Here is my base argument in a nutshell: Given the Rockets trifecta of Francis, Yao & Mobley--and their relative health and substantial depth relative to Phx & Utah--to me not making the playoffs is a major dissappointment. I think this is a much worse sign about Francis's development as a leader than ya'll seem to--but I do agree with you HP that a little tweaking with a trade of Mobley, Griff, MoT, Cato etc--is very unlikely to make much difference unless Francis becomes a better and more consistent team leader. What happened to Francis in terms of effort, focus and production the last month is a very big concern to me. Yao I am far more hopeful because of the huge physical and mental adjustment, and I only expect him to get better.

 

I agree with RIET--it isn't as simple as the best star's team wins.

Hakeem was the best player in the WC for like 10 years--it only translated to 2 final visits.

Honsetly 2 of LA's recent championships were very close to going to teams whose best player was the 3rd best player on the court (Wallace and Webber). Those series were decided on a few, almost random, plays--I think it is impossible to derive a trend from them because the outcome so easily could have been favored to the team with more distributed and deeper talent.

In sum it is just fine to build a team like the current Kings (1 superstar around 8 good players all working together), current Spurs (one MVP) or current Lakers (two mega-stars). Getting a team like any of these gives you a chance to win--that is all you can ask.

 

It was disappointing.

So...IT WAS THE COACHING.

We have so many good players and we still couldn't win consistently. That's the coaches' faults or the player's attitude problems or their real life. Needs to change.

SO ERIC PIATKOWSKI AND LARRY BROWN. How about it?

The only problem is Piatkowski is old and can't play good defense. Mobley...I GUESS should still be on this team...but...

Small Forward has to be able to shoot.

But I don't want to see Posey leave us...

SO DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT BOSTJAN NACHBAR? MAYBE HE CAN BE THAT MAN...surprise everyone like Ginobili...

 

Freak:

A big reason why were projected as a bubble playoff team was due to the large uncertainty about Yao Ming. Many believed that he would be very slow to acclimate, and that he would be a few years project. Well Yao broke a lot of those expectations, and as a result the expectations of our team should be raised. Yes, Yao is not great yet, but he is still quite the above-average center, and we still did not use a lot of facets of his game (such as outside shooting).

 

Okay. I didn't want to start a new thread. But this year was a waste. We should have done what Chad Ford suggested..not his moves...but his suggestion of developing.

http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2002/0821/1421135.html

Editor's note: ESPN Insider's Chad Ford breaks down what last season's NBA lottery teams need to do to get to the playoffs. ESPN.com's "Fixer-Upper" series continues with the Houston Rockets.

General manager Carrol Dawson's work was really done for him on May 19, when the pingpong balls of fate landed the Rockets the most coveted big man since Tim Duncan.


Even Yao Ming admits it'll take time before he gets used to the NBA.
Yao Ming is coming, and everything else in Houston takes a back seat.

After a year where everything that could've went wrong did, the Rockets seem to have Lady Luck in their corner. They are young, talented and surprisingly deep for a lottery team. Were it not for a slew of injuries afflicting everyone from Maurice Taylor to Steve Francis, the Rockets would have challenged for a playoff spot last season.

But fate has a funny way of turning good into bad and, in the Rockets' case, bad into good.

Like the Spurs in 1997 and the Magic in 1993, the Rockets not only stole the No. 1 pick away from more deserving teams, they reaped a rare windfall by nabbing one of the few franchise-type players to come along in recent years. Add another mid-first-round pick in sharp-shooting Euro Bostjan Nachbar, and the Rockets appear to have all the pieces in place.

Just when things couldn't get any better, the Sonics and hometown boy Rashard Lewis start fighting, and now the Rockets are in the hunt to make another huge free-agent acquisition. But fate won't stay on their side forever. Rockets team sources indicate that their only real chance of landing Lewis is through a sign-and-trade deal. The Sonics want second-year phenom Eddie Griffin as part of any deal. Even with Griffin in the deal, the Sonics are balking on the inclusion of players, such as Taylor, who are in the last year of their contracts. If Lewis can't get a sign-and-trade, he'd opt for the Mavericks' mid-level exception over Houston's. In other words, don't count on Lewis playing for the hometown fans next season.

Will the Rockets catapult themselves into the playoffs in the wild, wild West? ESPN.com poured over depth charts, trade rumors and salary-cap information and even sought the advice of a few NBA general managers to give you the four things the Rockets must do to get into the playoffs this season.


Taylor
Step 1: Move Mo Taylor if possible.
The Rockets seem to have played all of their cards right the last few years. From the deal to acquire Francis from the Grizzlies to letting players such as Shandon Anderson and Hakeem Olajuwon ruin someone else's salary-cap situation, management has made mostly right moves. But signing Taylor to a whopping six-year, $48 million contract hurt them. Just weeks later, Taylor went down with an Achilles injury. By the end of the season, he reportedly had been on the Shawn Kemp Twinkie and Kool-Aid diet and was weighing in at a whopping 300 pounds. Taylor is playing basketball again and has already dropped 20 pounds, but his days are numbered. Both rookie Eddie Griffin and third-year pro Kenny Thomas more than held their own in the post last season. Thomas actually put up better numbers than Taylor did the season before he got hurt. Griffin, in another four years, might turn out to be the best player in the class of 2001. Better to dump Taylor now before he sees his playing time disappear. The dilemma, of course, is where to move him. Few teams are excited about adding an undersized, under-rebounding power forward with a weight problem coming off an Achilles injury (if only Taylor had Kemp's agent). Still, there are deals out there. The most likely one is a straight-up swap of Taylor for Indiana's Austin Croshere. Croshere is in Isiah Thomas' doghouse, and Rudy Tomjanovic has always liked his inside-outside game. Taylor is more of a low-post player and would be a better fit in Indiana's system. Jermaine O'Neal's ability to play center should free up plenty of minutes for Taylor. Croshere and Taylor basically have the same contract, so the trade has more to do with change of scenery than anything else. Right now, both teams are looking.


Russell
Step 2: Bring in Bryon Russell.
The team's backcourt depth is shaky. Francis and Cuttino Mobley missed stretches of last season, and the team had only Moochie Norris and rookies Oscar Torres and Terence Morris to back them up. If they are going to make a run at the playoffs, the team needs a veteran who has been there. Bryon Russell is coming off a terrible season, which basically tanked his value. Russell, at this point, is willing to play cheap. The Rockets may be his best chance for redemption. Just two years ago, Russell put up 14 points, 5.2 rebounds and 1.9 steals per game. He has Finals experience, is a strong defender and would be a nice quality backup for Mobley.


Yao
Step 3: Go slow with Yao Ming.
The pressure on Yao is enormous. By his own estimation, it will take him a few years to get used to the speed and physical nature of the NBA. I usually advocate throwing young players into the deep end of the pool. But with Yao it's different. There are too many critics poised to declare him a bust. A rough start could shatter Yao's confidence, sending him into a Shawn Bradley career death spiral. I never thought I'd say this, but the Rockets finally have a reason to hang onto Kelvin Cato. They should split the minutes at center between the two. Next to Cato, Yao will look like a super star -- even if it's all a big illusion.

Those moves would give the Rockets this opening-day roster:

Point guard: Steve Francis, Moochie Norris.

Shooting guard: Cuttino Mobley, Bryon Russell, Oscar Torres.

Small forward: Glen Rice, Bostjan Nachbar, Terence Morris.

Power forward: Kenny Thomas, Eddie Griffin, Austin Croshere.

Center: Yao Ming, Kelvin Cato, Jason Collier

Step 4: Playoffs or development?
Like many teams, the Rockets have a tough choice to make. Is this the year they give big playing time to their future stars? Or do they use their veterans to propel the team into the playoffs? It's a difficult choice. The Rockets should have the firepower to grab a seventh or eighth seed in the West with Francis, Mobley, Rice, Thomas and Cato taking the majority of the minutes.
However, in the end, Griffin, Nachbar and Yao are the future of this team. Would it be better to use Rice, Thomas and Cato in supporting roles and give Nachbar, Griffin and Yao big minutes now? It won't translate into wins this season, but down the road, when Rice and Thomas are off the books, it could be the difference between a string of first-round exits and the chance at something truly special.

We could have done that.

Can someone tell me if Boki was a waste of a draft pick?

 

Yep hp, I agree. You can throw in no patience or perspective in there as well. Also no respect for championships or success delivered. How can you take the side of a player(s) who hasn't delivered anything over a coach/icon who has delivered REPEATEDLY? It boggles my mind.

I just mentioned Denver to be extreme. Yeah I agree about GS as well.

I guess I'm not really good at responding to things I agree with... What can I say, I agree with it all. Guess I'll have to go respond to Desert Scar some more.

 

I agree with you Freak if you are implying Francis was more of the problem than coaching. See we can agree

The only problem is Francis as a "problem" can really only be handled next offseason so my best hope is he somehow he magically turns into a team leader who can help his team win even when his J isn't falling. Either that or Yao progress so well in this offseason there is no question he is the day-to-day leader of the team, I think this is a more plausible scenario for a much improved Rocket team next year.

BTW IMO Mobley is not a major problem and is a relative asset way underestimated by most on this board--though him in combination with Francis seem to reinforce the worst in each other. So I do think breaking them up may be a good idea at some point--it is unfortunate that right now do to contract reasons it would have to be Mobley leaving. But I don't think they should trade Mobley unless he is part of a package just too hard to turn down.

In sum, I don't know how much we disagree on the future direction and future hopes. I think we also agree that the outcome of this year foremost lays with Francis--instead of elevating his individual and team game post the all-star game it became worse. I think coaching, Yao's wall impacting his all around production, and Mobley's offensive going south were all secondary reasons late in the season. Where we disagree is whether Francis as an all-star, the considerably potent Francis-Yao-Mobley trifecta, the quality line-up 12 deep, and coaching involved with all the above should have prevented a slide like we saw the two months or so. As Utah and Phx showed--you can't really blame results on the schedule--how you are playing as a team is more important than whether you have a couple of more difficult games on a stretch in a schedule than your rivals do.

 

I'm late to this discussion due to extreme busyness at work. Great thread. Let me just throw in my random .02.

The other day, the Lakers lost to Portland. Both Shaq and Kobe scored 36 points. None of the other players scored in double figures. This tells me that their two superstars can play very well and still lose if their role players don't make shots. I remember someone on a Lakers board said that many team didn't realize that the Lakers' role players were very clutch. You take them out of the game, you have a very good chance of winning.

My point is that it is quite obvious that it takes BOTH stars AND role players to win championships. Great stars without good role players are perenial playoff teams but no championship (e.g. Minnesota). Good role players without stars are about the same (e.g. Portland).

If you have a cast of role players like the Kings, you don't have to have mega stars to win a championship. No, SJC, I don't agree with you on this. Everybody knows that last year's WCF could have gone either way. It was that close.

As for the Rockets, I've never been crazy about Francis' game. I don't hate him. I think he has heart. I just don't think he is or can be good enough to be a "franchise" player. Yao had better be that man. If not, we could be a Portland without the jail. Or maybe we should really consider trading Francis. But I agree with HP, we need at least one more year to accurately evaluate Yao and some other players in order to consider major changes.

I love Rudy. I've been his defender for a long time. But I must admit that there are things that really leave me scratching my head: How can you not run an effective PnR with a shooting big man like Yao and a great penetration guard like Francis? How can you not run a good fastbreak with athletes like Francis, Mobley, and Posey and a passing big guy like Yao? The players are dumb, alright. But you can train even monkeys to do certain things. I can't fathom why the coaches can't drill these things into them.

 

Easy, I think you posts is on the ball. I do have a couple of comments:

Honestly I could take this in a different way. The Lakers went on the road against one of the 6 best teams in the league and were a last second 3 point miss away from winning it with everyone but two players playing like crap. Even the best teams when playing other best or close to the best teams on the road generally like their chances if the game comes down to one basket. That is a good job by the road team in the regular season or playoffs regardless if that last shots goes in or not.

And I would be thrilled if we finished the level of either of those teams this year--even if we did get knocked out in the 1st round. Further, we have better individual star, and maybe even a better core trifecta of players, than what Portland has, and we have a much deeper and thicker team than Minnesotta. Granted I'll forgive Francis for neither being the player nor leader Garnett was, and the rest of the roster for being outclassed by Portland's at this stage in their careers--but still I think the Rockets did not meet reasonable expectations given their pretty good trifecta, the individual talent of their leader, and a pretty thick 10 deep line up--which neither the Suns nor Jazz should have had such a combination.

Freak and HP like to reduce the argument to well Marbury, Marion and Malone were just better players and leaders--and I can't fault them with the conclusion. But then I ask why Francis--with probably the most talent of any of them (given Malone's current age of course)--wasn't a better leader? And I don't think Marbury's 6.75 to Francis 3.75 years in the league was the factor-- 4 years is about right for most players peaking--I think it was Marbury's hunger, passion, will and team committment (making the simple play with only the scoreboard in mind over the spectacular shot or pass). And of course if team performance is almost totally dominated by the performance of a single star there is no reason Portland should be ahead of the Wolves, Lakers, Jazz, Suns or the Rockets.

Easy, I am glad I have someone whose post on this matter I agree with so much

 

In regard's to the Larry Brown speculation by various posters, I'd wager you'll see him coaching at Kentucky before Houston.

 

Isiah Thomas wasn't a better player than Jordan. Jordan couldn't win over Thomas in the playoffs in the 80's because he had a lesser team.

 

If the Rockets can play defense and try every night, they shouldn't have too many problems. If they can rebound and get easy points and have ball movement and make open shots...then there should be no problems.

Francis is still a good point guard...an All Star point guard. He is a little streaky but he is part of our future.
Mobley is still a good shooter and good defender. If he was not arrogant, he would be a good player. I think he will begin to accept his new role as the 3rd option. If not...trade.
Posey is also a good player. He is tall and athletic. I think we should resign him. If he improves his shooting, he could be a very good role player. Just don't sign him for more than 3 million.
Griffin...if not traded...will need to get stronger. And he needs to practice shooting. He also need to be patient.
Yao needs to rest. Really. He needs at least one month to rest. Then he can get stronger and just practice...practice. Hopefully the coaches can design more plays that can get Yao involved.
Moochie sucked. Please get rid of him. Only one or two good games. Horrible.
Maddox was all right. We can keep him for minimum. He won't hurt us. He will just play garbage time.
Hawkins was fairly well. He has no offense. But he hustles...and is a good defender. We should keep him too for the minimum.
Glen Rice is old but...he should stay. He is going to be gone anyways.
But I hope Terence Morris gets to play. Because he is a good shooter and just a good shooter. He needs to play. But first...hopefully the Rockets will resign him for the minimum as well.
Bostjan Nachbar. I hope he is good. I hope he isn't a bust. But he also needs to play.
Maurice Taylor has been pretty good...good backup. It's just he makes way too much. He's all right.
Cato...excellent. Love it. He makes a lot too but I like him. We should trade him if we get some good in return...but good backup.
Collier...who cares. Forget him.

I think our starters are average. Our bench is also average...but they are overpaid. We have two main point guards. One main shooting guard. 2 main small forwards...with 2 other ones who should be playing. 2 main power forwards. And 2 main centers. In which position would you want a better player in? If we can...we should get rid of the 4 main bench players for one solid good player. But in what position?

And coaches...I just hope they can improve our team. PATIENCE. Our team is still young and new...it'll take at least 2 years to get good. But I think we should at least make the playoffs next season.

 

AMEN.

I wouldn't say F**K, though... I would say something like:

THEN DON'T WATCH THE ROCKETS OR CALL YOURSELVES ROX FANS.

Friggin' whiners.

 

There are some really good posts in here.

Thing is, early in the season, I was bemoaning those pissed-away opportunities....losing by 1 pt to Phoenix, losing in OT to New Orleans, losing to bad teams. This team threw away about 10 or 12 chances. Winning half of those would have put this team into the playoffs.

So, the playoffs would have been great for the team and the fans, but we still would have an iso-this just doesn't work team. A collection of individual iso talent that Rudy felt, at least deep down, that would coach itself.

Now Les has a chance to finally shake things up a bit. But where to go from here?

This summer, I'll refrain from the worst dreamcast scenarios....and I'll ignore ludicrous insider information by posters who have secured a second username just to BS the rest of us. Without a draft pick, it might be easier anyway.

 

I dont look at it as a COMPLETE waste of time.....at least we got Yao a season to develop and get used to the NBA. and hey, Larry got some coachin experience. Thas always a good thing rite??

 

They don't make big enough 's for posters like you.



Anywho, I think the problem is that we don't have just one problem. We have a bunch of problems. This team isn't as talented as we thought, our coaching sucks and has sucked for years now, we run a high school system, we are young and we have role players who think they are stars.

 

once TJ Ford digs the shank out of his body (talk about a 'prison rules' pickup game!) maybe the rocks can talk about packaging some of their aforementioned ballast to get his guy, who has been making noises about coming out in the past few days. There's your point guard, who facilitates the move of SF to the 2. At least so, in my 'NBA moves in a vaccuum' mind...