Generally, I don't scream murder because I don't think of it that way. I have fallen into that trap when baited by the pro-Choice/Abortion crowd, but I generally can avoid that. My ex-wife had two abortions before we married. I knew about them and I don't think I would have chose to marry a murderer if that is what I really thought. My pro-Life position dates back ten years before I re-entered the church. It is, to me, a common sense position. I never quote scripture on this matter. It is fundamentally a position of decency and fairness.
I can only reference what I see here and perhaps it brings out the worst in you but that is ow I always see you. I can agree with some of your arguments but then you always take it somewhere that kills talking with you by "the other side". Further I can agree with CometsWin in that I think you only care about the issue to the point of banning all abortions. I don't think you or most pro-lifers think enough about the implications and the next steps. Our society is way different than the decades pre Roe v Wade. Also, so many pro lifers are anti social safety nets and common good and the like. I think you are naive when you suggest that the government or people in churches will cover everything. I have seen how the states deal with the current level of unwanted children and it is generally abhorrent. There are not enough funds, education, resources, etc devoted to properly take car of or place whoever is unlucky enough to become a ward of the state. God forbid any unwanted babies be black. They are pretty much screwed. I just don't see anyone getting anywhere until the pro-choice side admits it is life and that shouting "choice" doesn't solve anything and the pro-life side admits that life is more than just conception and that shouting "personal responsibility" will not cure anything. Abortion will most effectively be reduced not by force but by education, economics, and improving the understanding and actual quality of life for this society. So, yeah, we are screwed. Lather, rinse, repeat.
So you'd rather kill the babies than try to fix the issue of unwanted children's care? That is a disgusting and shameful opinion. You're just trying to rationalize your entrenched (likely solely for political reasons) pro-abortion belief.
Please don't be stupid for stupid reasons and instead pay closer attention to the thread in which you are posting. Your post above does not apply to me, thanks.
First off nothing good can come from calling out other posters by name in a thread title. Second, This is a really good post and I while I don't believe life begins at conception I fully agree that abortion will be most effectively reduced by education, economics and improving the quality of life for society. Raising a kid isn't easy or cheap and should never be a decision entered into without planning to. The more resources that are out there to prevent unplanned pregnancies and to help with raising kids the less reasons there will be for abortions.
Sorry, but your definition of "a baby" is laughable. "When the baby can sustain itself on its own...." That definition changes over time! Just 100 years ago babies could not "live on their own" nearly as early as they can today. In 100 more years that will change too. Your fundamental principles are not grounded in strong logic, andy. It's time you reevaluate them, because you're just wrong here.
I truly laughed out loud when CometsWin tried to claim black people in Norway have higher standards of living than blacks in the US. All of those 7 black people in the country of Norway must have it good!
If the girl in India that was gang raped had survived and was pregnant as a result of the rape should she have been allowed to have an abortion?
I haven't defined "life" once. I have talked about the "line" that I would draw were I emperor, nothing else. If the fetus is not of value to the woman in whom it is developing, I don't value it at all. She has not made the choice to bring it to term, and her choice is necessary in that calculus. I tend to disagree. My own views on abortion were crystallized during exactly thins kind of debate, though with madmax participating, it was much more of a two-way discussion than this thread. I also hope to someday be able to impress upon the pro-lifers that if they poured as much time, energy, and money into working to reduce unwanted pregnancies, they would reduce abortion numbers far more than would be the case with a paper ban that wouldn't reduce those numbers dramatically at all. I will admit both truths. Nope, at least not on my end.
Definitions change as science gets better and as time goes on. I am perfectly happy banning abortions when a doctor can remove a fetus, then continue to incubate it outside the woman's womb. The problem is that you are trying to turn a "fetus" into a "baby" simply by decreeing it so. My definitions may change, but yours aren't even grounded in reality.
I don't know if they do or don't, but the fact remains that you just laughed it off without any thought, consideration of facts, or application of even a single argument to the contrary. FWIW, black people make up 1.5% of their population, certainly not the large population we have in America, but it isn't just 7 guys, either.
sample size way too small for comparison are you aware of the need for an adequate sample size? That makes a difference. educate yourself moon
That is just petulance on their part. If I can come in here where I am insulted in the thread title, then they can summon the courage to continue the discussion without the ad hominem attacks.... or so I would hope. I have no agenda to ban ALL abortions. Most yes but not all. The naivete is on the part of those who think that they can act wantonly and irresponsibly and they can terminate their problem even if it means a life lost or that someone else will just take care of their child. We owe those children protection and we, as adults, should have more dignity. The problem is never going to get better if we, as a society, just take the problem off somebody's hands. Any fix has to begin with personal responsibility. First, that will reduce the problem of unwanted pregnancies. Second, more babies will get raised by their own parents. Yes, there are no simple cures. Agreed to an extent. I see abortion itself as a force unleashed on a defenseless being. It is so easy to just forget that and them.
I doubt that will end the abortion debate. Any sort of technology like that will be very expensive and it will come down to who pays for it. I highly doubt that many of those railing against abortion would be willing to pay for providing artificial wombs for poor women who don't want to be pregnant. We already see a problem like this already as while many want to adopt children there are still many children who are not adopted especially those with birth defects. Also consider that IVF produces a lot of embryos with only a handful that ever get implanted. Since we have the technology of implanting embryos into surrogates you aren't seeing a rush of pro-lifers volunteering to make their wombs available to bring those babies to term.
Sorry, that was poor wording on my part. I just meant that ending abortion often seems to be the only goal. I understand your point with diminishing the value of the fetus/baby/life by making abortion an elective surgery. I too think that is wrong. Gladiato: First, I thought your "viable outside the womb" position was your definition of life. If not then I misunderstood but I still don't really understand. Doesn't matter. To me that is insane and dangerous. I think this is the only issue for which you would probably ascribe such a nebulous and devaluing standard and to me it seems more reactionary than anything else. Even Clinton's famous liberal justification was more sensitive to the life and morality involved than "I don't value at all". I would not want to tie any of my positions or moral code to the opinions of others.
This is where I disagree. By 16 weeks, the fetus can feel pain and the nervous system is pretty developed. By that time, it is not a clump of cells, but is sentient. It seems pretty barbaric to allow an abortion on a fetus that is sentient and feels pain. I mostly agree with you on the contraceptive/education issue. My only issue with that is that everybody knows that sex leads to pregnancy and know the the pill and condoms exist. There are organizations that provide these products at a low cost for the poor. A large part of the problem is that men just don't want to wear condoms. I know that when I was a young man, I sure didn't. I did it anyway, for a number of reasons. I wasn't exactly bursting at the seams with extra cash when I was in high school and college either. I made it a priority instead of buying sports tickets, electronics and all the other cool things in life. Sometimes in life, you don't get a mulligan. If you aren't responsible before you act, there are consequences that are irrevocable.
