Andre was cheated out of TDs far more than any other receiver due to his QBs' inability to throw a deep pass. Moss is a horrible example. He set career-highs in TDs and yards with the Patriots. Not every 'target" is equal... better QBs deliver better attempts. Ask Hopkins about that.
I think people are arguing 2 different things.... 1) Will Dre get in? 2) Should he get in? I wouldn't *bet* he HOF's, but do think he should. btw- bickering/debating can be fun!!
Terrell Owens is ranked 6th and 2nd in those categories and isn't in. Isaac Bruce is ranked 12th and 4th in those categories and isn't in. Chris Carter was ranked 2nd and 4th in those categories when he retired and it took him 6 years to get into the Hall of Fame. Tim Brown was ranked 3rd and 2nd in those categories when he retired, and it took him 6 years to get into the Hall of Fame. Also, when eligible, Andre Johnson won't be 9th and 10th in those categories anymore; he'll be middle of the teens. He has a difficult case to make.
No... Calvin Johnson had more. Beyond that, your claim was that he was the best WR in the game ('07-'13) - how was he better than Roddy White, who had more catches and more TDs? How was he better than Fitzgerald, who had the exact same number of catches but 19 more TDs? Because yards are the only measure we have for WRs? I thought we were talking about '07-'13?... Yes, Andre Johnson, during this much smaller window than the initial criteria *you* set, had better numbers. Of course, we're talking about Calvin's first four years in the league. And even then: Calvin had the same number of TDs and a significantly higher YPC. Also, staying healthy is part of the game; Johnson doesn't get points for being on the bench. During your time frame, the one you created, Calvin missed six games; Andre 19. That counts.
Is inserting "eventually" and "slightly more" into the conversation your way of admitting you were flat-out wrong? Between Wayne and Fitzgerald - two receivers you said did not have better numbers than Johnson ("at all" in the case of Fitzgerald) - Johnson leads in exactly one category: yards - but over just Fitzgerald in yards, and for literally just a few more weeks as he'll almost certainly pass him before seasons' end. They both have more receptions and TDs; Wayne has more yards. Just admit you were wrong; move on... .......... No. I thought he was a great WR - but in an era overflowing with great WRs; he wasn't transcendent to me. But... I don't feel strongly about that opinion. I do feel strongly that he'll have a tough time getting in, based on all the **** we've been discussing - but it certainly wouldn't disappoint me if he did make it.
McClain (if he's still doing it then) needs to sell it as the first Texan to go in. He carried this franchise for so many years. I think Jacksonville is the only team without a HOFer
First of all, Wayne only totaled 18 more games; his career wasn't that much longer. More importantly, Wayne spent 8 of his 14 years opposite a HoF wide receiver. With Harrison, Wayne averaged 7.1 targets a game; after Harrison ('09 - '12), he shot up to 10.1. Johnson averaged 9.5 through '12. So any advantage Wayne may have had because of his "longevity" is, at the very least, evened out by having to share balls with Harrison for eight seasons. And he *still* has more career receptions, yards and TDs than Andre Johnson Beats him handily, career-wise? Or during his peak? Both statements are wrong; just clarifying. Fitzgerald, career-wise, has more receptions and TDs (and, like Wayne, spent a chunk of prime years - six - opposite a very good WR); will have more yards in a few weeks. During their prime (which, per you, was '07-'13, right?), Fitzgerald had the same number of catches and more TDs. And, again - '07-'09, he split balls with Boldin.
Andre had 5 years where he averaged 90 yards/game. Roddy zero, Larry 1. Andre had 3 seasons over 1,500 yards and another over 1,400 yards. Roddy had zero over 1,400 yards, Larry zero over 1,500 and 4 over 1,400. Andre had 4 100+ catch seasons, Roddy 2, Larry 3. Andre, looking at each players peaks, just had a clear edge on catches and yards. And despite getting "force fed" short passes because the rest of the offense couldn't do anything, he still maintained a yard per reception average as high as the other guys.
Calvin Johnson played an entire (winless) season with Dan Orlovsky and Jon Kitna as his QBs; he scored 12 TDs. So please don't feed me any bullshit about poor Andre Johnson having to play in his prime with a top 10 quarterback. Right; he was targeted on 27% of Brady's throws that year; when AJ led the league in receptions and yards ('08), he was targeted on 32% of Schaub's throws. Better QBs are more capable of spreading the ball around. Welker had 145 targets that year. And worse QBs deliver *more* attempts. And let's stop this bullshit that Schaub wasn't a good QB - from '07-'12, he was one of the 8-10 best QBs in football. It's not like Andre Johnson spent his entire career with Tony Banks...
Yards; not catches - and even then, he didn't even lead in yards just among guys named Johnson....... And I notice you continue to just ignore touchdowns, in which Andre Johnson - the best WR during his peak, right? - ranked at the bottom among his peers year after year.
It seems like you're trying both sides of the argument. He got more catches because of bad QBs, but he got more yards thanks to Schaub being good
One other thing, TDs can be more fluky, at least as compared to yards and receptions. Calvin even had two 5 TD seasons in his prime. Everyone said Hopkins was great at catching TDs...until he got stuck with arguably the worst starting QB in the league Could also be part of the Kubiak offense. Thomas and Sanders not puttinf up tons of TDs last two years
Exactly.... he has no argument. Notice he couldn't answer the "yes or no" question too. Hey "Sean Jones" Now!
Except... Johnson's lack of touchdowns wasn't fluky - it was consistent year after year, across different quarterbacks, different regimes, different systems... Between 2008 and 2009, he was targeted 342 times and scored 17 TDs. In '12 and '13, he had 343 targets... and 9 TDs. You can probably point to a lot of factors - legitimate factors... but I have a hard time believing it was 100% out of his control. Bottom line, for me... I don't believe his circumstances were unique enough to "what if..." him to a higher plane. Again, Calvin Johnson played a winless season with Orlovsky and Kitna and still managed 1,300+ yards and 12 TDs, which were only six less than his entire team combined. The entire league knew he was literally their only competent offensive player, and he scored more touchdowns that year than Andre Johnson did in any of his however many seasons. Every WR in his peer group has a handicap of some kind.
What part of "No" confused you? Was it the the N? The O? Those two letters being combined to form a single word....? You've spent very nearly the entirety of your day in this thread completely and totally wrong. Worse, when corrected, you tried to move the goal posts - "slightly," "eventually"... No; you were wrong. I would suggest taking a break, clearing your head.
