I respect your personal opinion. At least to me, these aren't easy issues where there is a clear "right" answer. There are a lot of rights and interests in play. Look, I support Roe. I never had to pay child support. I was married close to 30 years ago to a wonderful partner and am still happily married. So, this is not bitterness talking. I don't have the correct answer to this incredibly tough personal, legal, emotional and political issue. But, never having been on the bad end of someone else's choice in this area, I still empathize with men who don't get a say. Your condom retort was intelligent but it takes two to decide to risk that. Or, I imagine in some rare cases, the man believes the woman is on birth control or the condom fails. It may not be the popular opinion, but I have a tough time weighing 9 (really 10 months) with a lifetime of change for the man if he disagrees either way. On balance, it doesn't change my view, but I do find it profoundly unfair to the man in the situation to say he has zero choice regarding fatherhood -- whether he cherishes the idea or wants to avoid it. Don't have a solution but also don't buy in completely with the sentiment of "my body". Respect that you do. Our guts or minds just feel differently.
I think it might have been @Sweet Lou 4 2 that I was responding to re: the condom. I read both of yours back to back. And, I respect both of your opinions on this issue. Some issues seem black and white to me (this may to you). Others seem very complex. This one is complex to me.
If it bothers a man so much, then he can have a vasectomy or wear a condom. No, a man should not have a say over whether a woman has an abortion or not. He isn’t growing or carrying the child. He will not be the one giving birth or nurturing the child.
Look, you have an opinion. I usually respect your posts. But, try to have empathy for more than one person in the scenario. One scenario: The man may believe to his core that the "cluster of cells" has a soul and that his child is being killed. The fact that you may not have the same belief system doesn't negate his or the pain he feels. I'm not talking about people who put on a religious front for whatever reason. There are a lot of incredibly devout people whose views you may not agree with but they hold them all the same. I don't presume to know when life begins, but I also don't presume that I'm so right that I can take incredibly difficult issues and boil them down to a few bs declarative sentences. Hey, the woman could have her tubes tied.... How stupid a statement do you think that is?
I understand what you are saying. I do have empathy and I don’t pretend that everything is perfectly equal. Having said that, the woman is the one carrying the fetus... she is the one that has to birth the child, go through 9 months of the child growing inside her and the one that will have to take care and bond with the child after birth. A man cannot do that. Men in our society know these facts. So wear protection or have a vasectomy. Otherwise, because of biology we are at the whims of the person that we had sex with.
I hear you, and the woman does have to give up 9/10 months to carrying the fetus/child and whatever residual body changes come with that, but she is not forced to raise the child. If the father wants the child, she can give him custody.
Not only residual body changes, but also also health risks (including the possibility of death) involved with carrying and childbirth that the father does not. And... one residual body change is the biological/emotional bond that may develop with the "fetus/child". I think your last sentence is correct, the mother can CHOOSE to give the father custody... as its her choice.
Yes, I was presuming health risks were already included because most pro-lifers would have an exception for the mother's health. I guess to be fair you would have to add the risk of post-partum depression which you aren't going to detect during pregnancy. I'm not advocating for forced labor. I think I have stated clearly that I support Roe. I am just conflicted because there are a lot of difficult issues (at least to me) -- one of which is how badly the father is treated in the situation. I get you biological/emotional bond point, but I don't think it trumps the emotional bond a man may have if he truly believes the fetus is alive and his child. I'm sure the biological connection is strong, but people can suffer severe emotional trauma (like believing your child is being murdered) without the biological connection.
Have you been to Alabama? There is no question it is a difficult situation all the way around and nothing is clean or clear cut, which makes it even more difficult. Nature doesn’t always play by our rules or sensibilities. Many times women have abortions and men never even know.
Why is it that if men don’t want to pay child support they should wear a condom but if women don’t want to grow a baby they can abort? It’s a fair complaint. With he obvious exceptions, both parties in a sexual encounter have made the same choice. One gets an exit ramp if she doesn’t like the result and the other gets zero say and a potential life sentence on his financials and yet it’s the women that are being oppressed.
A man has to give up his career hopes and desires so he can get a job to pay for child support... Oh wait.
Because biology. Growing a baby <> pay child support. That's why it's different. Besides, child support is gender-neutral - it's just generally that mothers get custody. If the dad gets custody, the mother can be required to pay child support too. It's not a one-way street. Both parents have a financial burden for a child. Only one parent has to grow the baby. That's why they get different sets of choices.
The risk of death or major complications is always there during the duration of carrying and at deliver time also. It’s not true that risk is always known prior to delivery. That’s a risk men do not have. As for father bonding, biology also play a part. Father goes through hormonal changes (of course not at level of mom) that last 6month after delivery. There isn’t a good idea why yet but one possibility is the bonding and playing the protective role. I’m with you that the father should have some consideration but it’s a very small one relative to the mom.
Women have to flat out make more sacrifices period. I think it's disingenuous to say that men have to sacrifice nearly equally because of financial support. The reality is for most middle class families where the male has some form of career, the male isn't sacrificing career ambitions. The male in most middle class families also isn't having to work more hours but rather sacrifices on expensive hobbies and toys. He's still ambitious with his career and would probably work as hard without a child because most humans have some level of ambition and desire to make more money. A female also has to sacrifice on her expensive hobbies and toys. She also has to sacrifice more often her career ambitions and her body. So at the end of the say in average terms, the male sacrifices his financial lifestyle(desire for a new BMW etc) while the female has to sacrifice her body, her life ambitions and financial lifestyle.
Well, there are more and more men who are choosing to stay at home and be an at-home Dad. Or may want to take a job that pays less but interests him more (or does more good). Or retire early? What if that is the man's life goal? And it's not about "toys". Aren't you buying in to and imposing gender roles that are supposed to be going away?
I don’t dispute at all that women make more sacrifices. However, if you think a fetus is nothing but a sack of cells, then if she doesn’t want to make those sacrifices she should have the parasitic cells cleaned out until that non living mass is created inside her by someone who wants to support it. Or she can let that sack turn into a life if she wants to support it. Of course I don’t believe these things. I find the situations outrageous though and completely disagree with some notion of oppression of women when it comes to abortion.
No, you misunderstand the S. Ct as it has normally functioned throughout American history. You probably believe the right wingers on the S.Ct. give a crap about original intent of the Framers or something. lol To be fair, the life time appointments do give the Justices some protection to rule against what is popular at the moment, but that has usually been exercised to keep the majority from redistributing some wealth or power downward. Of course the Framers never intended that the Nine or whatever number could overrule the will of the people as expressed by both branches (now both elected) and the President. Speaking of the amendment for election of the Senate. One of the problems is that it should be easier to Amend the Constitution if we are to give 5 un-elected folks the right to declare what laws passed are Constitutional. As far as your assertion that each state should be free to make their own abortion laws. Your side tried and essentially continues to try to make the same argument as to whether African Americans have full civil rights or can eat in private restaurants etc. Rand Paul on Civil Rights: Private Restaurants Wouldn't Have To ... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rand-paul-on-civil-rights_b_582674
Pat, the son of a long term GOP Senator has always been an upper class warrior/ politico disguised as a preacher. He looks at abortion primarily a wedge issue to get the flock voting for his side in the class war.
