Afraid to start this thread, hopefully someone else will

Strike out numbers are also at an all-time high in baseball because of the swing for the fences mentality.

 

there's a whole school of thought that strikeouts are overrated as a bad thing in baseball. that they're really no different than just making contact and popping up to the SS. i remember having a conversation with Major about it here before.

of course, i'm not sure why any of that is relevant to the conversation about criticism for bagwell and biggio as compared to francis.

 

of course you're the one who brought up the lack of fundamentals in the NBA fueling criticism of individual players, so I brought up some problems with the way baseball is played, and Bagwell represents some of those problems.

 

i hope you didn't take my tone wrong...wasn't trying to be a smartass. i'm sensing from your response that you thought that.

Bagwell is a career .300 hitter, pgabriel. He has over 400 HR's...I think approaching 450. He's been a gold glove caliber first basemen for most of his career. He has come up short in the playoffs. He has been a fundamentally solid player, albeit with an unorthodox swing.

Steve Francis has simply not a comparable career to that in basketball. He just hasn't. Perhaps he will improve and provide numbers and accomplishments that give rise to Hall of Fame type credentials. But I don't see it. I see a player in his 5th season having his worst season ever. I don't see progress. I like the guy...I really do. But I think comparing his accomplishments relative to Jeff Bagwell is silly.

 

I don't know how you can compare the numbers from two different sports but I would argue that Bagwell has been one of the top four first basemen through out his prime. Thome, Frank Thomas, McGuire, and Bagwell.


I would argue that Francis has been a top four or five point guard through his first few years with the Rockets so in relative terms to their positions in their sports, they're careers are very similar.

 

Bagwell's career >>>>>>>> Francis' career

Until Francis can go through a 5 year stretch where he is competing for the MVP award, you really cant compare him to Bagwell.

 

You're getting better. You almost made it through the entire post without an anti-bla................ahhh forget it.

Just wondering though, where are you getting your "popular opinion" info from?

 

Using that criteria, you can't even make the comparison. Has John Stockton ever won an MVP award. Has Gary Payton. For stretches of both their careers you could argue that they were some of the best point guards ever. How many point guards even get considered for MVP. Has John Stockton ever even finished in the top 5 of MVP voting. Maybe, but I would guess that most sports experts would say that Stockton had a better NBA career than Bagwell had a baseball career.

Its just hard to make that comparison.

 

As far as Stockton is concerned, he was NBA first team a couple times, 2nd team a handful of times, as well as 3rd team. He was also on the All-NBA defensive squads a bunch of times.

He had a minimum of 10 years where he was on the All-NBA teams. Thats an accomplishment. Maybe he didnt win the MVP, but he was definitely recognized as one of the top 2 PGs during his time.

For Payton, obviously he was regarded as the best defensive PG of his time. As far as MVP voting:

1993: 6th
1994: 9th
1995: 6th
1996: 6th
1997: 3rd
1999: 6th

You can easily argue that these guys have had better careers than Bagwell has. At the same time, Francis is nowhere near where these guys are. Therefore, Stevie has a long way to go to even be mentioned in the same breath as Stockton and Payton, and Bagwell, as well.

 

But Stevie has his own accomplishments. For three seasons, he was one of only two or three players in the entire NBA to average 20,6,6 and he is only one of four players all time to average 18,5,5 their first three seasons. The other three being Magic, Oscar, and Grant Hill. So he may not have the awards or the votes, but he has put rare numbers in his own right.

I seriously believe Francis will go down as one of the most underappreaciated athletes in this city's history.

 

pgabriel, I love what Stevie has done for the Rockets and for the city. Im not knocking his skills one bit. The only reason Im making these arguments is because Bagwell has had over a decade of impact and he has done it at an incredibly high level. My statements arent to discount what Steve has meant to basketball, but rather, to uphold what Bagwell has done for baseball and, more importantly, the Astros.

 

I always wondered why they included Steve in an 18/5/5 stat when the other players all averaged 20/8/7 or better their first 3 years...anything to overhype a player I guess.

I really believe Steve is a GOOD player. He had some good qualities that included versatility, but putting him in the same category as Magic/O/Hill is like putting Yao in with Wilt and Kareem.

 

Because of a statistical oddity, he is one of the best players? Is Kirilenko the best player in basketball because he was the only one to have 5x5 games? Steve has good scoring numbers (if not shooting numbers) and very pedestrian assist numbers, but because he gets more rebounds than most other guards (not even a big rebound number, just big for a guard) people like to use it to hype him up. Both Chris Webber and Brad Miller put up 14-8-4 last season, and Tim Duncan did not. I don't think anyone would pick Webber or Miller over Duncan, just because Duncan didn't get as many assists. Likewise, nobody would pick Francis as their PG over a Kidd or a Cassell just because he scores three more ppg or gets more rebounds respectively.

 

The numbers are what they are. You guys are sort of proving the point of the thread. Steve has put up impressive numbers, whether they meet your standards or not. I didn't look up those numbers that put him in a category with Magic, Oscar, and Grant. The numbers may not prove Steve is one of the best point guards, that's an arguable point. They do prove he's one of the best all arouond basketball players in the league. I don't need to knock Bagwell's numbers to make a point. You guys have to knock Steve's numbers to prove a point, calling them statistical oddities or overhyped. The numbers are what they are, and they put him in rare categories. That counts for something.

rezdawg-

Bagwell definitely has longevity, and Steve has to rebound from this season and start putting up good numbers again. I wouldn't put Steve in Bagwell's category yet, but we'll see what he has done by the end of his career. But the point is he has been a very good player in his career so far, no matter how you look at it.

 

No doubt. I agree.

 

pgabriel, all you are doing is simplifying each player and sport and trying to make some correlation. Please don't compare Francis to Baggs on such a simple measurement.

Baseball takes a completely different approach to winning. Reminder: Different sports. And Baggs has a diffrenent role individually AND teamwise (each postion within the dynamics of baseball just works differently than other sports).

Just because two players were top 4-5 players, doesn't mean that they are "similar" and should be held to the "same" standards. Apple and oranges.

The best player (any sport) will get more of the criticism if he is not leading his team; statistically and metaphorically. But, that player will get a lot more scrutiny if he's in the NBA because of the nature of a 5 MAN TEAM; there are less players to "blame." And each NBA player on the court has a larger effect than a 9 man baseball team; or an 11 man football team. It's mathematical sense. And there are even *other* factors as well (I should'nt have to explain the differences of football, baseball and basketball to you).

Also, you can't just "want" us to give Francis the same level of "fairness (subjective)" than Baggs. Bagwell has his own problems. A few being his *play-off chokes* and tendency to go for the home run most of the time. But each player must be assessed separately.

It's not about "fairness." Francis *wasn't* traded *because* of his great speed, leaping ability, quickness, and scoring ability(20/6/6; the impressive part). It was IN SPITE OF IT! He was traded because of his responsibility (failure) as the PG to run the team and tendency for high turnovers/questionable shot selections. It was the aggregate of ***everything*** related to his role, lack of teamplay, and some statistical measurements is what got him traded.

This has nothing to do with Baggs! I mean, hell. Maybe he'll be traded too (like you seem to want). But we'll deal with that when it comes! Separately.

P.S. Baggs is NOT one of my favorite players. Berkman is my favorite. Kent 2nd. Bigs 3rd. Then Baggs.
P.P.S Francis best stats: 20/6/6. "Wow! Impressive! Now, off to Orldano with you!"

Happy?

 

Baseball has it's own problems. True. But please stop with the "pay no attention to the man behind the current" diversion.

If you want to talk about what's wrong with baseball, ok fine. Lets talk about it. Separately. It prevents subjective comparisons: "The balls are both round! Hey, they are the same!"

 

Our expectations for each are different.

We used to be the same way with the Rockets before 94. It was a "prove it to us" attitude. Now, it's a "We know you can do better" attitude. A higher standard. Because we, as Rockets fans, know what it takes to win it all.

For the Astros. It's still in the "prove it to us" mode.

 

Dude,

I don't know what your problem is, but I suggest you read what the subject of the thread is about before responding to me. The thread IS about BAGWELL and FRANCIS, and comparing the crticisim they receive in Houston.