Afraid to start this thread, hopefully someone else will

What crap did Steve Francis talk and not back up this past season?


As far as this subject, I heard you and Marc on the radio this morning AB, and I thought it was ridiculous that Marc was trying to compare the two. He basically relied on the the losing streak that the Rockets went on at the end of the season to try and make a comparison to the disaster that is the Astros. Marc never really backed up the Rockets and he didn't like Francis's game so you have to understand what mindset he was coming from.

The fact is that the Rockets weren't a disappointment this season. They finished exactly where a team with one all-star guard, and a developing big man should finish. I don't know why people expected fifty wins out of this team, and even if it did win fifty wins people would still have found ways to bash them. But I believe the Rockets finished exactly where their talent allowed them to finish.

The Astros on the other hand were predicted to make the playoffs and make a serious run for the World Series. They might not even finish above .500. And that includes playing in season when just about every other team except the ones running away with divisions are disapointments. So that adds to their suckiness this season. They had every chance to make up ground on these other disappointments and they continue to shoot themselves in the foot.

To me, considering talent, expectations, and the performance of their respective leagues, this isn't even close. The Astros have been a disaster. The Rockets finished right around where people expected them to finish. I don't even know where Vandameer got off comparing the two.

 

I think it has more to do with the nature of the game. Basketball players are more emotional, have the spotlight on them more, especially when they have the ball. It's more of a "team" sport where everyone has to constantly be on the same page to do well. When it gets ugly, take your pick from 5 players whom you feel didn't do their specific job, time and time again.
As for baseball, you'll get a lot of general performance accusations, rather than fire at one or two individual players. It appears to me that a basketball team really focuses on one or two players, but baseball does not- you've got field players, you've got a pitching rotation of starters and relievers, a lot of pieces for sure, but they don't constantly have to work together like a basketball team does.

something like that.

 

I think baseball is a completely different game than basketball. In basketball it is very easy for someone to say "how could he make that stupid pass .. what a moron"

Baseball is a much more imperfect game where failure is expected even from the greatest players. It's very hard for someone to pinpoint why the Astros havn't hit in clutch situations, whereas someone knows exactly what SF3s problems were and everyone thinks it is so easy.

I've always been a defender of Steve because I don't like bagging on hometown players especially ones that have been around awhile, but it is much easier to bag on him than a baseball player.

And I would say recently the treatment David Weathers has been getting (deservedly so ... way more than Francis deserved it) has been getting to that level proportional to the number of Astros fans mainly because he has sucked each and every time out.

 

The Rockets winning the back to back championships in 94-95 and then coming really close in 97 spoiled us. Once you taste the dizzying highs, the lows seem so much worse.

And the post-Hakeem iso-based years were THAT bad.

(At least I didnt need Ambien)

 

AB --

This may sound crazy to you...but I've been more frustrated with the Rockets of the past few years than the Astros. Here's why:

1. Different sports...different accomplishments. We remember the Rockets coming from the 6th seed in the Finals in 95. We can discount the NBA regular season, big time...and it appears, at times, the players themselves do the same thing. See Robert Horry's career! More teams make the playoffs than don't in NBA basketball. But we dont' do that in baseball. It's 162 games and just a handful of teams make the playoffs. The 'stros have never come in as a wild card team...they've been division winners everytime. That's success in baseball. You make the playoffs after a 162 game season where only 8 teams out of 30 make the playoffs, you've had a pretty damn good year. In basketball...if you're one of the 16 teams that makes the playoffs, that doesn't necessarily mean you're a very good team. Or that you've had real success. Teams make the playoffs with sub-.500 records. So when I compare the accomplishments of the Rockets to the Astros over the course of the past 5 years or so...to me, they're not even close...particularly considering this was the first season the Rockets have made the playoffs in quite a while.

2. Relative history for the franchises....ties in a little with my last point...but the Astros had won all of 2 division titles in their history before Bags and Bidge. Bags and Bidge were the anchors of teams that won the division 4 times. That's success like we've never seen from this franchise. They won over 100 games in 98...and they were always in it. They were 1st or 2nd in the division for a long, sustained period of time.

3. A PG is like a QB. There's no comparable position in baseball. They are conductors for criticism.

4. Bagwell's and Biggio's flaws weren't mental errors...not stupid mistakes. They didn't perform in the clutch..in the playoffs. That sucks....and it has earned them their fair share of criticism. But there have been more than a few great baseball players who've had that problem. Francis' errors seemed to stem from lack of maturity...i never called out his heart...but he made some ill-adivsed off court decisions...and a lot of ill-advised on-court decisions. It appeared, to me anyway, that he never, ever learned. That he never improved on mistakes. Those mistakes cost us..costly turnovers..inability to run the fast break..etc.

5. Bagwell and Biggio get Hall of Fame run. It is at least arguable that these guys will be hall of famers. I don't see Francis' career headed in that same direction...yet he's given a superstar "title"...I think that's where the backlash comes in...that's a title that other players have had to earn...this guy came in labelled as Franchise. That's probably not fair to him...but it is what it is. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe Steve will prove me wrong. I wish he would have proven me wrong here, because I was rooting for him like crazy. But I don't think so.

6. There is a ton of criticism directed at the NBA in general right now. The inability of guards to knock down open shots...too much emphasis on flash instead of substance...etc. We're seeing that play out with the Olympic team big time right now. Unfortunately, Francis fits in that mold. Part of that is the franchise label...part of that is his inability to cutdown on turnovers...an awful TO/Assist ratio....and a team that could never close out big games...a team that blew games against lesser opponents for what seemed to be a lack of focus. When you're the PG on a team like that, you're going to get criticism. Particularly when you're billed as The Franchise. I think that's just the way it is.

I would also point out that the criticism I'm hearing now for Bagwell and Biggio is pretty venomous, frankly.

 

I disagree.

On a side note, Bagwell is a back-stabbing, shoulder diseased, salary engulfing b*stard. Get a real batting stance, chump. F him and his lousy team.

 

This year's Astros are one of the most disappointing team in Houston Sports History. For this season alone, there is not even an argument.

 

If it makes you feel better, AB, I'm white and I liked Steve.

 

The negativity is manifesting itself into some sort of ectoplasmic slime beneath the streets of Houston as we speak.

 

Not true at all. The best player on the basketball team usually gets his bulk of the criticism. And considering that Yao was treated like the best player when the Rockets won, and Francis was treated like the best player when they lost, made the criticism on him unfair. No one criticized Sleepy Floyd when the Rockets were under achieving in the mid and late eighties. They criticized Hakeem, but they gave him his credit when it was due.

You mention the playoff failures of Bagwell and Biggio and it not being worse than Francis's lack of improving his mistakes. What about the fact that Francis was far and away their best player through the playoffs, carried them to their only win, and pretty much was the only Rocket who did perform well in the playoffs. Not performing in big games?? What about the game they needed to clinch against Denver. As a matter of fact, I remember one player who performed poorly down the stretch last season when they didn't make the playoffs. And it wasn't their quarterback. But that guy is immune from criticism.

As far as the venomous nature of Bagwell and Biggio criticism. Nothing gets as venoumos as the no BBIQ, streetball playing, blah blah freaking blah criticism of Francis. I remember Francis and Cuttino getting criticized for not standing properly during the national athem during the 00-01 season. Nothing gets worse than that.

 

Yao's in his second year. In his second year we were still pretty giddy about Steve -- even though he came with all sorts of baggage.

I have to agree with Max. Basketball just lends itself to a greater focus on a particular player's weaknesses.

Fewer 'key' players -- so more focus on the individual
More room for creativity, style, and... correspondingly...errors, second-guessing and criticism
Greater individual impact on a game (arguably not more than a pitcher -- but the pitcher doesn't play each game)
More show-boating
More 'trash-talk'
More emotion from the players

So we get all this subjective stuff that we judge them on...their heart...their intelligence...their attitude. Hard to transfer that to a 'bullpen' or an outfielder.

That said...i am somewhat shocked how enthusiastically some taken to bashing Steve.

 

Max touched on this, and I tend to agree.

Basketball is a game that lends itself to many more decisions which are open to criticism than baseball. Which pass to make, shot selection, defensive positioning, whether or not to scissors-kick while dribbling in the backcourt, etc etc. Baseball has much fewer moments where decisions can be criticized. There is much less independence on the part of the player. Sure you can screw up running the bases, or you are out of position on a cut-off throw, or you can take a bad path to the ball in the outfield, but most mistakes in baseball are physical in nature, not mental.

I think baseball players also get more of a pass on the mental aspect because *so many* of them are articulate, friendly people. Basketball certainly has these types as well, but popular opinion of basketball players is more of the urban street culture -- not a culture known for being articulate, law-abiding or mature.

 

As far as the basketball isn't played the right way these days, using that argument in defense of baseball players is also false. I heard a statitician comment on baseball scores today. He said that the scoring increase in baseball from the late sixties till now is the equivalent to NBA teams averaging about 180 points a game. He wasn't off considering teams used to average about 3 runs a game and now they average 5 to 6. The fundamentals are out of whack in baseball far more than they are in basketball. But everyone loves to jump on the NBA's case about their lack of fundamentals and you hardly ever hear that about baseball and its players.

 

It's mainly the lack of quality pitching due to an increased number of teams along with rules that have hurt pitching in general since the late 60s (e.g. lowering the mound) that have led to the increase in runs in baseball rather than the lack of fundamentals.

Most of the time, players do execute the fundamentals (hitting the cutoff man, turning the routine double play, going from 1st to 3rd on hits to RF). Granted there are times when players screw up, but in general games are fundamentally sound.

Did the statistician offer an explanation? The major complaint from pitchers regarding the late 60s vs. today is the lowering of the mound. Baseball has entertained thoughts of raising it, but fans love the higher scoring (i.e. more HRs) game. Personally, I don't think there is anything better than a 3-2 (or similar score) baseball game.

 

Don't forget when the umps destroyed half the strike zone, and let hitters camp on the inside of the plate - removing another half of the remaining smidgen - and also, aluminum bats - Bill James makes the arguments that players today are going to the opposite field with more power than they ever have been because they grew up being able to go to the opposite field with aluminum bats, and many were able to continue doing this with wooden bats at the major league level, something they wouldn't have ever learned to do w/o aluminum bats.

Then there's the new parks that were opened that were bandboxes, a trend that appears to be reversing itself.

In twenty years the game will be back to a pitcher's league - baseball runs in cycles like that - hell, old people in the 60s might've been pissed that the games were boring pitcher's duels, after seeing the offensive explosion of the 30s. It would've been like the NBA going from 110-120 pts a game from each team to 50-60. Like I said, cycles.

 

'That guy' , was as someone else pointed out, in his second year and improving. In his second year and dealing with an incredible amount of touches while still trying to adapt to the Nba's speed and style, working on a weakness of his game, and under the tutelage of a new coach. But, as I said, still actually improving.
His 3rd year however, will be given a lot more critique. It's time for him to really step it up even further.

Without THAT guy, Steve get's no chance at clinching anything at Denver, for a winded Yao who carried the team to that point. And definitely no chance to get a first round playoff match up against the one team he could dominate and take advantage of throughout the regular season, to which, overall, he contributed nothing to. Was just a downright horrible season for a 5 year 'all-star' veteran, deserving of the brunt of the criticism. Considering his 'leading' play, actually hindered us throughout the regular season.
And the 2nd year sophomore was the main reason for our chances in getting into last year's playoffs.

I apologize, AB, didn't mean to derail the discussion. Just, couldn't resist but comment on this.

 

OK, Bagwell is definitely not the Bagwell of old and he's absolutely painful to watch these days and his contract is a leaden weight that will sink this team for years to come but at least he had the stones to call out that sorry ass punk Oswalt for Fing up our chances at winning that game. All this handwringing over "he was WRONG to say so publicly" is a crock. Dierker's whinny article in today's Chronicle really ticked me off. These morons act as if the fans are deaf dumb & blind mutes. Anyone with a brainstem could see what's going on - Bagwell merely stated the obvious. That's EXACTLY why this is a team full of losers. If the rest of those punk losers devoted HALF the time and effort they waste on crap like this "proper clubhouse behavior BS" they would not be in next to last place in their division and out of the playoffs AGAIN. No, they much rather sit around the clubhouse and wash and iron their dresses than act like a REAL baseball team that's trying to actually win something for a change...

 

it surprises me not at all that you and i don't see eye to eye on this.

 

baseball goes through swings. we're out of whack right now relative to the 70s and 80s. we're more in line with previous eras, though.

fundamentals in baseball are so sharp right now...better than they've ever been. a lot of that has to do wtih technology and year-long training. but you'd have a hard time convincing most baseball guys that fundamentals are "out" in baseball.