Affirmative Action

Jeff is correct

Af Action is about equal opportunity.
In the past and even to an extent now
If all things are equal . . .people hired white
in the past it was if the white applicant
was less qualified . . . hire white
[to an extent this still happens]

Is it cause they hate blacks . . . maybe
but i'm not comfortable to admit that just now
Is it because they are less comfortable
around blacks or have some preconceived notions . . .
This is beleive is true.

at Texas A&M a white student asked. . .
Why do all the black students sit together
of course we raise an eye brow
there ar 40K people at A&M and 20~25 blacks
at one table STAND OUT?
Comfort
If you worked in a company and noticed
your black boss hired 90% black . . .
I think alarms would go off.

It is a flip of switch . .. if all things
are equal hire minority . . ..If that was
the mindset . . the Corporate market would
change DRAMATICALLY.

The thing that bugs me is this.
All those Anti Af Action . . . have no
alternative . . .

It is not simple.
As Jeff pointed out man CEOs upper management
is nearly all white male. Did they get there
on merit? well to an extent but alot of
them been in the job for 30+ years.
Let's go back to 1970
Who was more likely to get that entry level
corp job and also get access to the mobility

Black Male, White Male, White Female.

You CANNOT start a race. .. .
Let one person Run for a mile. ..
Then let the other two run with chains on
for another mile. . . then take off the
chains and say . . .SEE IT'S FAIR NOW!

Minorities are starting at a disadvantage.
one several VERY important aspect of success
1. Education - this has been GREATLY improved
but socio-econimics tied in with past deprivation
still limits this.
2. Access to power - Poor White Man still has
a better shot to talk to Rich White Man than
another minority - look at Fraternities etc
which is where alot of contacts are made
3. Preconceived notions held over from a
racist past

For the history of this country
white men have enjoyed a privileged place in it
and it has been that way so long that they feel
it is THEIR RIGHT

Taking away that priviledge or crutch scares
them. Af Action is suppose to take away this
priviledge. . . this is what some see as unfair


Merit - HA! this never happens
Hell I think more folx get jobs from Nepotism than Affirmative action

[DID YOU KNOW . . if ya dad was an aggie u get into a&m easier than if not . .. So
up until say . . .. the nineties black could not take advantage of this because Blacks were not allowed into the school until the 70s . . . so there were not many black second generation ags. . . . is that fair?
This is institutional Racism]


Rocket River

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Personally, I hold Affirmative Action to mean that race has NO preference and NO bearing no a position, no matter what. No discrimination (based on race) against whites, blacks, hispanics, eskimos, whatever.

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"Up and down, inside out, outside in, some you lose some you win"
-- DMB -> "Sweet Up and Down"

 

Shanna . . what is?

You admit that minorities are still in a sense
being PUNISHED for being minorities. . . .
so should they just continue to TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM
rather than for once in the history of this country
the White male TAKE ONE FOR THE TEAM?

Rocket River


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Hydra: I respect your opinion, but I think it is easy to sit here and say what is in the best interest of minorities when you don't face discrimination and racism daily.

I had the fortunate opportunity to play Latin music. I played with mostly Hispanic and African American musicians. In some cases, I would be one of only a couple of white people in the entire club. Sometimes, I would be one of only a handful who spoke English.

I never once encountered racism or discrimination based on my being Anglo. Not once. Not in the clubs, not with the other musicians, nothing.

When I was 18, I played in blues and swing clubs in the 3rd ward. Sometimes, I'd be the only white kid in the club surrounded by older African Americans. Not once did they say anything or even suggest I was out of place.

In fact, most musicians I've worked with have always made it a practice to make light of our differences. My black friends poke fun at how white I am and vice versa. My Hispanic friends do the same thing. It is done out of mutual respect because neither of us feel threatened. Most of the black and Latino friend's families treated me better than my own has.

Now, on the other hand, I've played with musicians of different races who were harassed because they were black or Hispanic. I've actually defended some of my musician friends to white guys. I've played jazz gigs where I was allowed to come in the front door, but my African American friend was asked to come in through the kitchen because the white people in the club thought he was kitchen help. It's embarrassing!

The point is that minorities don't really have any reason to assume companies predominantly run by white people or white people in general will do the right thing absent of laws that force them to. The track record isn't exactly stellar. People are still killed in this country simply because of the color of their skin. That's just a fact. Yes, they are on the extreme edge of society, but it would worry me as well if I or my wife or my children were in that situation. Who wouldn't be concerned?

I've spent a great deal of time around people of many different races both here in the US and in other countries. The bottom line is that people are the sum total of their experiences and lessons they've learned. Unfortunately, not all of them learned that racism is harmful to others. Not all of them learned that diversity and respect for others is a good thing.

It is our responsibility to do whatever we can to protect the interests of those who would be wounded whether it is by our actions or our judgements. It is our duty as humans to do no less.

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The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama

 

I don't believe in affirmative action, I believe in negative action!

I think that all white men should be hog tied and forced to clean sewers with a toothbrush held between their teeth. This will take some time.

In the interim, all "minorites" can take the jobs of the whites.

If even one millimeter of the sewers are not completely cleaned after 1 year, then all the cleaners will be hanged by fishing wire.

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You sanctimonious philistines, who scoff at me!

 

did you miss the word ONLY or did you
just ignore it?

pure numbers says that you more likely to hire
a white person than a minority because there
are more of them. More of them with access to
various education ops. More of them with access
to your company . . .because their are more of them.

Rocket River
ooooo . . .TRUE Minorities . . .as oppose to the regular ole fake ones LOL


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OK . . Let's say this is true
THE COST OF THIS FREEDOM IS

No Government help of any kind
No breaks from the Government of any kind
If you don't wanna hire minorities
why should you benefit from our taxes

See FRIEND we don' live in a vacuum
You statement is the problem
You want the benefit of minorities but you
don't want them near you . . .you don't want
to have to deal with them . . .

You don't want crime. . but don't wanna pay for crime prevention
You don't wanna see homeless people on the street . . . but you don't wanna pay to house them.
You don't want the responsibility of being in a diverse society. .. but you want the benefits of it . . .

You see FRIEND with Great Freedoms
comes. . . Greater Responsibility

IMO you represent unenlightened self interest
which is the plague of society.

Rocket River
"Am I my brother's Keep!"
"YES, I AM"
- Cash Money Brother [New Jack City]



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OK, before I was just fihing (damn, no bites...not even pole?) but now I will be serious,

First, clarification...

DoD,

4 out of 17 were hired, right? Meaning 2 out of 6 minorites and 2 out of 11 whities. Thus, your ratio was better with minorities (it was not 2 out of 17 as you said). Just clarifying, I think you typed it wrong.

I also agree with River that it is often harder to be black than it is to be any other minority or an immigrant.

Example...my wife is from the Phillipines and, while she has experienced some racism (or we have together), many whites have considered her white...past boyfriends would say that they are not an interracial couple, police will put "white" as her ethnicity. If you know anything about Fillipinos, you know that they can be very dark (she was actually called blck once when she was little). Seems funny to me.

On the other hand, black -- african americans -- are often seen as the ultimate evil for racists. There are more stereotypes, more history, more fear (very important).

It is the black male especially that has been turned into a street walking animal predator, ready to feast on white children!

I have seen many good ideas for long term solutions, but river's words also move me -- about doing something now. I have seen the deleterious effects of an institutionalized racism. I was friends with casualties growing up.

Live, your last post reminded me of a satirical song by 60's folk singer, Phil Ochs. Excerpts:

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every coloured boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
of the AFL-CIO board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
as long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Anyway, I digress.

Hydra,

Actually, you thinking that the minorities are the cause for perpetuating racism is perpetuating racism. Ha! That was even more circular! Silly minorities, when will they learn?

That is often the problem with discussions such as these...people who have never experienced or seen or know how to relate chime in with their solutions or opinions.

In the end, none of this matters...there will always be more talk than action. That is, unless there is some kind of Civil Rights Part II movement started from the bottom up. Waiting for the government to implement real change will cause one's hair to fall out.

Just wait another half century, then get back to us.

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You sanctimonious philistines, who scoff at me!

 

Rim,

Hydra never said its was JUST the minorities. He was saying it was both, not just whites.

I think we are all too impatient. For a couple hundred years, blacks were not treated equal. Since the last 40 years, they have made substantial progress.

Also, I think we use the term racist a bit too loosely. I know plenty of prejudice people, but few racist.

There will always be racism/prejudice, because there will always be the one fool to scream racist the moment a conflict occurs between two different racist.

White Boss to black man: You are fired for poor performance

Yahoo who knows nothing about the situation: "You fired him because you are racist"

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Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!

 

Hell, how many folx willing to raise their
hand now and say the bought WHOLESALE into
Susan Smith's story? [and this was not the only
incident of this]

When the truth came to like. . the implications
that a nation was so ready to beleive this
negative view of black men was not addressed

IMO you can more easily be label Anti-Semetic
than racist. [both mean prefudice imo . .]

The reason folx 'cry' racism so quickly
is the same reason white folx 'cry' isolated incident
[Susan Smith . . .Rodney King . . . etc]

In their worldview . . it maybe all they have seen

We really need to start thinking outside the
box.
Telling a starving man to be patient . . .
is not easy


Rocket River

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Consider this thought, SpaceGhost.

At this stage in human evolution and development, it is safe to say that WE ARE ALL RACIST in some form or fashion.

Racism is the treatment and valuation of a person or group based on racial or ethnic background and heritage.

I could almost GUARANTEE that everyone on this board reacts, conciously or unconciously, to different people in different ways based on a shared or different ethnicity or background. I can admit that I do almost daily.

Prejudice thoughts and actions are the PRODUCTS of racism, they are not mutually exclusive.

Interestingly, racism isn't nor has to be a negative, ugly thing. When I make the statement, 'I'm proud to be an African-American', that's a racist statement. I like to think of it as a "beautiful" racist statement, me being proud of my race and my place in it, but it's racist nonetheless.

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It seems these days, you can't use words that come right out of the dictionary. Take the "n" word for example. To me, it means trash, as per the dictionary. But it is frowned upon because we let so many idiots misuse it, so we decide its a bad word because we let a bunch of uneducated fools use it.

As for racist, we generally think "hate", when it means "a love for ones own nationality/race or superior to another nationality/race"

I tend to agree with you. When I come across a black person, I do not treat them the same. I generally more considerate and nice to a black person as opposed to a white person, in hopes to improve racial relations.

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Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!

 

Your argument is not applicable here. The question was not should minorites receive public aid. It's a matter of should private businesses be forced to adhere to certain hiring practices.

Your argument breaks down when you realize that white people receive a beneift from minority's taxes but minorities recieve benefits from taxes on white people. In fact, since white people tend to have higher incomes they pay more taxes. So, by your argument, mintories owe something to white people.

Now you can argue for anti-discrimination laws on moral grounds but not the arguemnt you tried.

Btw, nobody asked, but here's my $0.02:

Private universities should be able to admit whoever the heck they want. All white people, all black people, all men, all women, whatever. I personally belive diversity is a valued commodity in the educational process so I would only send children to institutions that tried to create diversity but my values are not everyone's values.

Public universities should have two options: No discrimination at all (ie race does not matter) OR preferential admission of minorities. If the president/chancellor of the university believes diversity helps the educational process then it should be encouraged. If s/he doesn't, race is not a criteria.

When it comes to employment I belive private industries should be free to hire whoever they please. Goverment agencies would have to adhere to strict anti-discrimination laws, however.

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Excellent. I agree.

Rocket River


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If you look at my post, which has been quoted several times, in the portion about hiring practices I went out of my way to use very general terms to make my statement. This was not done without reason. The immediate assumption was that I was intending a whites only policy. In fact this was a very racist way of thinking. Why would Af-American only businesses lead to a racially based underclass? They would not. If Death Row Records wants to restrict its hiring to only black employees/performers, who am I to say that they cannot. I guess that my main point in all of this, is that the perceived victims are often times as racist or moreso than those who they claim to be their oppressors. I would never hire someone on the basis of race, (joke approaching) unless it was a tech job, then they must be Asian (j/k ) (joke finished). I think that interviews would best be conducted in a similar way to which the job is performed eg. tech jobs by computer, sales in person or on the phone, actors in front of a camera, etc. Also, I do want to help the poor, and I am a conservative. I happen to feel that they way the liberals go about it will never work, but it doesn't mean that I do not have compassion. Sorry for rambling, but I hate to see a whole group of people maligned on the basis of something as petty as skin color. Its funny that people who have suffered so much under this practice would be such willing participants going the opposite direction.
In closing, perhaps if my post was considered without prejudice on the way in, it would not receive negative response on the way out.

PS - I noticed no one responded to my idea of having many races represented in the interviewers, an interesting idea IMO and worth consideration.

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You can't stick a porcupine in a barn, light it on fire, and expect to get licorice.

[This message has been edited by Hydra (edited May 16, 2001).]

 

There are several words that are in the dictionary that are not necessarily "good" words to use. No matter what your definition of the "N" word is, it's one of those that's best left unused because you know as well as I do, there is really only one connotation for it.

I just treat them the same. I try not to patronize people. I figure if I treat one person like I treat every other person, they'll have no argument. It's when we start giving special treatment to people that all hell breaks loose (IMHO). The term equality should be that - equality of opportunity, equality of education, equality of promotion, equality in all aspects of society with no regard to race. Once we start treating one another as equals and stop fearing one another, we won't have to walk around wondering "did that guy just kiss my ass 'cause I'm a minority?" or wondering if that person was patronizing me or not.

Most of the people I grew up around were blacks and hispanics with a few vietnamese and orientals. When I got to college was the first time I ever received "a good dose of white people". I was never treated any different than anyone else (at least not to my knowledge). I've experienced racist remarks that made me wonder how the person that said it could be so stupid.

I've seen both sides of the fence and neither side is really pretty. I've seen the minorities' side with the constant feeling of being under the white man's thumb, being held down, not getting the opportunities the white guy has, etc. I've seen the frustrations on white co-workers' faces as they see every argument turned into a white vs. black argument. I've listened as white co-workers basically insulted entire races in front of me to the point I wanted to slap them. I've listened as black co-workers told me the only reason the black guy wasn't promoted was the company probably didn't want black people in higher positions (nevermind the company's CFO was black as were 2 or 3 of the 7 or 8 directors). I've seen people like Colin Powell, Barbara Jordan, etc. become the pinnacles of success. I've seen others just waste their lives away b****ing and moaning, then have kids and teach them to b**** and moan. The cycle never seems to end and the way things are going, it never will.

In the midst of all this battle of the races, what gets lost is the fact that the black community has completely lost all contact with their ancestry (for the most part). The civilization that gave us the beginnings of thought, the start of civilizations, and the origins of mankind itself has lost that history. On top of this, the loss of personal respect and dignity. Those are the biggest losses. Not money, promotions, or job security. That vein of thought would lead me completely to another discussion, and we seem to be drifting away from "affirmative action", so I'll end it right there.

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NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.

 

No no. You have it right and I typed it right. My point was exactly what you said. We only had 5 or 6 minorities that we interviewed and we hired 2 of them. But others would interpret that as "hey, out of 17 people, they only hired 2 minorities". When we actually hired 2 of the 5 or 6 we interviewed. I was just trying to point out that people need to look at what is presented to those doing the hiring instead of just raw numbers. I love stats, but damn do they lie!

If I need to hire 1 person, do I wait for the minority that fits the bill to show up? As easy as that may seem to answer, I really don't know. Compassionately, I'd kind of like to help the minority group out, but realistically I know I can't. I would feel as if I were betraying myself.

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NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.

 

I'd see if the party was worth staying for. I'd see if I was invited just to see if I was sincerely invited. The fact is, I would at least make the attempt to attend the party.

I understand that. But sticking together does not mean you have to segregate from another group to do so. That's like saying "screw you, but um, how about some respect towards us?"

You're confusing businesses with social groups. I have nothing against minorities "congregating" in one place. That's natural. If I as a minority business owner own a lot of land and want to help a fellow minority out, I will ask them to set up shop on my land. It's groups of people helping people. That's not self-segregation. You're not saying "screw the white man". At least I don't think so...

I never said that African Americans have infinite amount of opportunities. I don't even believe they have equal opportunities. I'd be nuts to say that. I believe equal opportunities, but not necessarily equality of outcome.

Believe me I know this. I grew up with black kids. I worked with several people from Nigeria in a hospital for years. There is definitely a difference. Let me put this bluntly : from working around several nationalities, I know there are Africans that look down on African Americans and that's just tragic.

I really have no animosity towards anyone, especially not you. I know it's a b**** being African American in this country. I just don't want a race to be "resurrected" through the overuse of crutches such as hiring them to meet some type of quota. That's not conquering your master, that's accepting a handout.

I would love it if we had a raceless society, but amen, I agree with you.


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NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.

[This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited May 16, 2001).]