1. I don't beleive those studies. Also It is the institutional Racism that is the problem They require Institutional solutions. 2. You see the poor white man as doubly screwed now . .. . but it's ok for the poor minority to be doubly screwed as it is now? Once Agian . .your solution is fine BUT we must endure 30 more years of 'disadvantaged' status which is fine and good for those of advantage but for those suffere. . . well I guess that is not important. The thing about the RED LINE is their is also a group of admissions set aside for the children of alumni etc and as i stated at my former school it not accessible to a load of minorities because they're parents WERE NOT ALLOWED AT those schools when they were college age Rocket River ------------------
Your defense of AA is actually quite eloquent, I just don't think it stands up ethically to individual analysis. You don't believe those studies: why? Generally, the government has sought to eliminate variables, looked at individuals in equal situations, and examined what happened to them. Generally, the same things happened regardless of race. What is wrong with that sort of study? Institutional racism: race is an incidental factor to "children of alumni." Something's only racist if there's intent. Tradition and money are important at any school, and such are encouraged by such practices. Generally speaking, the true problem is that whites and minorities don't "hang out" - and when people don't associate at a friendly, personal level, business associations are also harder to form. Thing is - this generally works both ways - as in, the minorities don't want to hang out with the white people, either. Or maybe want isn't even the right word for either group - they just don't. Concerning a time frame: social justice takes a great deal of time. Very, very few issues are ever resolved quickly. Look at the Jews in Europe: they were abused for millenia. How about the Armenians in the middle east? Same thing. The good news is that social wrongs are being corrected more quickly these days. I know, the civil rights movement happened a LONG time ago... but in 50 years, a great deal of progress has been made. It took Protestants much longer to gain rights in France, for instance. Anyway... it's simply not ethical to create a false 'category' and then benfeit the people in that category. Race isn't a valid category of situation, and we should eliminate it. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
Speaking as a lifelong "minority" I'd like to take this moment to say that I don't feel screwed or punished in any way. I have no stats to back this up, and I hate to spout without backup, but most problems minorities scream about are problems they perpetuate themselves. Then they gang together and have this "it's us against the white man" mentality. If the individual refuses to pick themselves up, then how the hell can the society made up of those individuals pick itself up? Sure there are several underprivileged that require assistance, but in my eye, this equality through affirmative action is faulty if there are quotas involved. I don't pretend to know much about affirmative action. Up until I started reading this thread I thought quotas were involved and people/companies chosen through its system weren't necessarily the best available. If quotas are involved or if the best are not chosen, then it is a bogus system. You have Vietnamese, Chinese, European, Indian, African and every other freakin' group coming over here, starting companies, becoming CEO's etc, what exactly is holding the minorities in this country back that they require affirmative action? At least people here can speak the language and have a head start. I temper this again with the fact I know there are underprivileged people in this country that deserve better and greater opportunity, but I swear some people say they're being discriminated against for the sake of saying it. It's getting to the point where minorities are gaining the image they NEED these crutches to succeed. I was kind of pissed when I found out I wasn't a minority when it came to scholarships in college. Go figure. I had parents that came to this country with less than $20 and a barely decent command of the English language and now are worth over $1 million and can still barely speak English well (lol!), so don't tell me it can't be done! Ok, I'm done venting. I apologize to those I offended, but this debate about minorities getting screwed grates on me. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
DoD: I don't agree with you entirely, but here's an interesting example to back up your point. The Haitians and 'Hamans have both been immigrating to America for about the same time span... and in America, the two groups hate each other The 'Hamans think of the Haitians as welfare bums who won't get jobs, and the Haitians think of 'Hamans as assimilated snobs. Did racism cause the Haitians to do so much worse than the 'Hamans? Probably not. Sometimes, problems are just cultural misunderstandings. For example, in the early 90's there was a problem with affluent, elderly Chinese people giving their children all their money early so they could collect welfare in their old age. They didn't view this as unethical, simply a social system designed to help people. There's tons of strange stories about stuff like that... ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
There IS a much better way!! When you fill out an application (for school, work, loan, ect...) there is always that one question. "What is your race" Now please tell me why this is important on any application?? Why are we not screaming to have this removed, as opposed to fulfilling a quota? The only way to remove racism is not to see color, and Afirmative Action only makes it worse. When it comes to work, I want to to work with the best qualified person. Too many of us like to look at the effects of a situation and not the causes. Saying there are not enough women in congress is like saying there are not enough women in road construction. They are not there because they do not want to be there. Maybe I should complain there are not enough men secretaries, or men in beauty parlors. ------------------ Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!
Interesting that you made this point. For a while, I was looking for a job and did the usual looking at ads, faxing resumes, etc. Well, on my resume I mentioned that I received this "Minority Excellence", or something like that, scholarship as one of my educational achievements. But then I modified my resume removed any mention of this scholarship, and I got considerably more call-backs. I have a pretty common Westernized name, so my resume gave little indication to my background or race. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe I was applying for the wrong positions before I amended my resume, maybe at the wrong time, I don't know. But I found that experience to be quite interesting. You make some GREAT points, DoD, and I hope that I'm not coming off as a "victim of the Man." Thanks largely to those who came before me and fought for our rights as Black people, I'm not discriminated against. And if I've been interpreted in that way, I am SINCERELY sorry, because my words have been a TOTAL disrespect to people such as my mother, uncles, aunts, cousins, family friends, and others who have been the REAL VICTIMS of discrimination. And I totally agree with you that hysteria born out of the "white conspiracy" is more deterimental than anything that "the Man" could ever do. But I still don't believe that America has progressed to the point that opportunity will be granted to everyone unless the government mandates policies such as AA. I'm not saying that AA is perfect, nor effecient, and it is most definitely not the ABSOLUTE solution, but it attempts to rectify a situation that, according to historical precedent, would not be addressed otherwise. Now, I agree with those who would rather develop programs to improve education, to equip the poor and disadvantaged with job skills, the "teach a man to fish..." approach. Great idea, you have my complete support, but how are such programs going to be addressed? I'll give you a hint: it's the ugliest word in politics and it starts with a 'T'. And since I've alluded to such an ugly word, I expect this FANTASTIC thread to close now, because everyone has an idea as long as they don't have to pay for it, "...not in my backyard." ------------------ [This message has been edited by Live (edited May 15, 2001).]
I agree take it off the d*mn form It is a start [I mean base on address/name/ etc folx can guess at ya race but. .. .still it is a start] DoD Why does a abuse spouse stay with the abuser? Why does victims sometimes fall in love with the victimizer? Yes, Even a society can have a psychological problem. Trust me. .. .we're working through it as we have for GENERATIONS. Rocket River There is no Justice. .there is Just Us ------------------
I can just see the screening process for an interviewee now : "Holy cow, somebody fire up MapQuest! Isn't that address in 3rd ward? No way in hell that guy works here!" "What? His name is Leroy? Must be a pimp. Rip his application up". None of those analogies really apply here or maybe I'm just not getting the analogies. The problem is there are enough people out there content on being where they are yet b**** about it like they want more. The ones that succeed are the ones that aren't content and look for ways out. Then you have the ones in the middle getting yanked around (anybody remember the Malcolm X fad?). If you ask me, those screaming racism, discrimination, etc. need to look to themselves first. Another thing I just hate. Self-segregation. For hundreds of years, minorities, more specifically African Americans, have been ripped into, had their rights taken away, their heritage stolen, and had their education stolen. They fought to end slavery, fought to gain civil rights that even a dog would have, and gain equal footing. Has it completely succeeded? On paper it has, in reality it hasn't. However, what we now have are people that are gaining that ground trying to segregate themselves with the "it's us against the white man" mentality. You go to "the white man" looking for equality but you're giving him the finger while you do and you expect him to have compassion? Your forefathers worked hard to get the rights you have now and you basically say "let's segregate ourselves again because they're not looking out for us". Rocket River, I understand where you're coming from, I just don't see myself agreeing anytime soon. Somebody please give me a reason to like affirmative action. I promise to come with an open mind. ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now.
Where did you get that idea? I would suggest that it is cause and effect rather than women just simply don't want to be in leadership roles. From a young age, women are encouraged to take a back seat to men in leadership roles. There is even a pervasive attitude of "good for you for overcoming your gender" when it comes to women. How often are women celebrated for simply taking their rightful place alongside men in things like athletics, business and government? It works the same way in sports. Women have not been encouraged to play sports in the same way men have until only very recently. Ultimately, for most women, the end result of athletics is a college scholarship which, while great, isn't the millions men get in pro sports. Just because they don't have an outlet or haven't had the encouragement doesn't mean they simply don't want to. That is WAY to wide a blanket statement. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Every time there is a race related thread in here it is just a complete eye opener how people view racism. If you want to do interviews in a manner where race and ethnicity can't be detected then we'll take the race question off the application. There is racism, there is bias, and there is discrimination. Whites receive the benefit of the doubt in most segments of society. Minorities live with racism, bias, and discrimination every day. They don't have the luxury of questioning whether it "really" exists or not. I guess according to Space Ghost, saying there aren't enough minorities in Congress is like saying there aren't enough white people in road construction. They just don't want to be there. ------------------ The ox is slow but the Earth is patient. [This message has been edited by Timing (edited May 15, 2001).]
Space Ghost: Sometime you should examine the polling percentages of people who explicitly claim to prefer men to women. The # is huge... and many of the are women. Even when women are elected, they often have to compromise enormously, or represent unusual variations. For example, Barbara Boxer is a radical feminist (I still like her though), while Kay Bailey's a crazy, (incredibly stupid) conservative who makes people feel safe and doesn't threaten them. But the woman has no grasp of policy, at all. It's *hard* for pro-active, moderate woman to be elected. They either have to work to make men not feel threatened, or they have to court the women's vote excessively. I consider this problematic. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
DoD If you wanted to goto a party and folx didn't let you in so you have your own party Then those other folx say HEY . . . YOU CAN COME IN NOW you are suppose to DISMANTLE your party and jump in over there? It does not work that way a coping Mechanism for black folx has been a coming together . . .a sticking together to make their way through. You say that but on the other hand you talked about the chinese/Vietnamese etc that came to America an made it . . . yet their is a Chinatown in most major cities and they don't want much to do with those outside of it beyond commerce So it seems Self Segregation is working for them From the outside looking in . . . . one would think Af Americans have an infinate amount of opportunities. . .but the reality is alot of the subleties of america is lost on those on the outside. It is easy for me to say . . .the black in south african out numbered the whites and should have just REVOLTED but the reality is more complicated than that . . . . .At least understand that and forreal. . . . It is EASIER for someone to come to the country and make it than for minorities in this country to . .to an extent Being Black in america has a stigma to it even being African in america is different to being a African American Rocket River Shanna, DoD, Etc. . . I do not dislike you or hold any anger toward you. I have a frustration level that I cannot articulate what I mean better to you . . . .I really appreciate this opportunity to understand . .the other side better. . . because honestly .. . It is simple . . .as it is to you . . . I think we like a crowd at an auto accident there are as many stories as their are viewpts and in them is the truth I think we all WANT a RacistLess Society but getting there is our dilema ------------------
Rocket River: I don't think getting there as difficult as most people believe. I'm VP of the Boston College Democrats; this position enables me to work closely with some pretty interesting people. I've interned, for example, at the MA attorney General's office, and I've coordinated a convention that involved Ted Kennedy, Michael Dukakis, and Donna Shalela. I know personally a few congressmen (well, semi-personally). These people aren't racist; not a one of them, that I can tell. The people I work with (some of whom, I assume, will be the next generaiton of leaders) are racist. The President of the Harvard dems, we all expect to be President some day (only half jokingly), and he's a great guy. My roommate is completely different. He's in the the business school... and he interns for Meryl Lynch. He's not racist. None of his friends seem racist. And they represent the next generation of powerful businessmen. All of these people are going to be "leaders" someday - and none of them are racist. I do think racism exist - I think some people are just bastards, pardon my language, but I don't think that goes for the majority of Americans. I *do* think we have some problems becoming closer to members of other races, sometimes... but that's a different thing entirely. I think the problem of "hate" is almost gone... we just have to work on building bridges now, but I do think they're being built. Every time a racist incident happens at BC, the entire student body is *horrified*. We all have demonstrations, candle light talks, and grow closer together. It's very common to see different races dating on campus. I have many friends of different races, as do most people I know. Nobody cares what race you are. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 15, 2001).]
Uhhhh no! Not only did you twist my anology around, you also reversed it. I wonder if you argue for the sake of arguing. ------------------ Im too drunk to walk ... Im driving home!
First, I would like to say that I think anyone in a private industry should be allowed to hire/admit/whatever whomever they choose. If a person owns a business and only wants to hire like persons, that is their perogative. On the other hand, in public arenas, I would like there to also be no rules on hiring, but instead, try to make the interviewers as diverse as possible. In this scenario, we could see if people only hired those who were like them, or even if those of us who represent the evil white male are more open than others. I believe this last part to be the case. How many companies exist with at least 100 employees that are over 90% white, how many over 90% black. What percentage of white owned and black owned companies respectively do these represent. I think these numbers, if available would be very telling. In my experience, it is the minority group that is more racist than the majority. Rocket River is a perfect example of this, as evidenced both in this thread and in his many references to the KKKops. Until the minority groups realize they they are at least as instrumental in keeping racism alive as the majority, I don't think any of these problems will ever be solved. ------------------ You can't stick a porcupine in a barn, light it on fire, and expect to get licorice.
hehehehehe LOL Mad Comedy . . . . Rocket River or should it be Rocket Racist hehehehehe ------------------
Haven Once upon a time i beleived as much I learned better If you only hire white guys . . it doesn't MAKE YOU RACIST but your hiring practice is suspect . . . once does not have to be racist to do a racist act. Rocket River alot of times people just going along with the system that has institutionalized racism systems must be changed ------------------
No it doesn't. That's just a blanket statement with racism screams sleeping under it. I helped interview people at my last 2 jobs. I interviewed a total of probably 17-20 people. Of those i think only about 5 or 6 were minorities (true minorities, meaning of ANY race other than caucasians). Only 2 were qualified for the positions. We hired both. We hired a total of 4 I think. If you look at the numbers we only hired 2 of 17 people that were minorities. Oh no. Our hiring practices are suspect. It's not our hiring practices that are suspect, it was their resumes that were suspect. This is another example of people crying wolf when there is no wolf to be found. Oh, and by the way, as you can probably see 11 of the 17 were caucasian. They're probably out there saying we discriminate against them because we rejected damn-near all of them. LOL! ------------------ NBA Draft Lottery is May 20th. Start praying now. [This message has been edited by Dr of Dunk (edited May 15, 2001).]
hydra: While I know it's tempting to say "people should be able to do whatever in private," that's really not practical. If you do that, then a great deal of unfair things take place. Besides, such th ings do not take place in a vacuum: society bears the cost for racist hiring practices. For instance, if minorities are excluded from good jobs, and are forced into marginal positions, society's social infrastructure will suffer. There are certain things that are immoral on face... that debate isn't even possible concerning. IMO, racism is one of these things. There is *no* valid way you can say that being white or black or hispanic, or whatever, makes one a superior candidate for a position. That's wrong. And I haven't found Rocket River to be racist at all. It's undeniable that minorities, as groups, have suffered enormously. I'm just more optimistic than he is (maybe just younger), and don't think one can act on the group level. ------------------ I would believe only in a God who could dance. - Friedrich Nietzsche Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
