An excellent post. I also enjoyed reading Judo's data showing that the rate of abortions in this country has been dropping, with one plausible reason being the much increased use of long acting contraceptives by women. I've always been for birth control, and Planned Parenthood has been a key source of birth control for women for many decades now, particularly those with low incomes. What better way to lower the number of abortions than increased education, and access to the latest methods of birth control? Planned Parenthood has always been at the forefront here, in my humble opinion. And Giddy, couldn't you make the thread title a little larger? It's difficult for me to read!
Copied from the other thread to keep from further derailing that one... I just went back through that thread and didn't see so much as a single "cited" post. I didn't use the word "legal" in that post. However, I will stand by my contention that every single medical procedure carried out in this country should be performed by a licensed medical professional in a regulated facility. WTF are you talking about ?!?!?! Allowing someone to choose abortion is the same as forcing them to have one? Delusion, thy name is giddyup. I am on record as supporting the end of prohibition, which means I would allow any adult who so chose to purchase cocaine. In your delusion, that would be the equivalent of strapping all adults to a backboard and blowing cocaine up all of their noses. No wonder you aren't able to discuss this topic reasonably. No, I wasn't complaining then, I was freaking three years old. Yes, I am complaining that you want to force your personal moral beliefs on the rest of the country (many of whom don't share your beliefs) by passing a law banning abortion. I get that you are of the opinion that fetus="life" but you don't get to force that opinion on anyone else. Nobody is forcing you or anyone dear to you to have an abortion. Nobody will try and force such an abortion on you. By the same token, you don't get to remove everyone else's right to choose what happens in their own bodies because you have a moral objection. That decision belongs to the woman, her doctor, and her God, you don't have any place in it. Nope, I know.
…and here’s as good as a jump-in point for me as I’m going to find. I’ll lay the ground rules for honest (or dishonest, whatever works for you) review of my comments out first, so nobody feels the need to overstate the obvious: 1. I’m Black (not the half-whateveryouwanttocallit variety) 2. I’m male. 3. I vote mostly Democratic (though I’ve ventured recently into Independent waters), so 4. I’m officially and categorically an indoctrinated, ignorant, brainwashed parrot of a Negro of the kind your mothers warned you to stand your ground against. I don’t like abortions. I can’t see a place for it in the light of my “Christian” faith. And that says enough on its own about this particular problem for America. And in that same light, I’m reminded of a Christian anecdote where Jesus of Nazareth was offered a supposedly cut-and-dried situation that, if he was really in favor of “justice” and the law, he would have no problem agreeing with the disposition of it. Seems a group of people brought to Jesus a woman who, they claim, was caught “…in the very act of adultery…” (would have been fun to see how that bust was carried out)… …and, according to the law, she deserved to be stoned to death. No fuss, no muss, no due process…no right to face your accuser (who somehow, if the crime was adultery, was conspicuously absolved of such at the woman’s expense). Jesus, if he was a righteous man, would agree with the law here. No two ways about this one. She was wrong. She got caught. She should have the book thrown at her. Good Book, rocks…whatever got the job done. Jesus’ answer, of course, is more famous than the question. He asked if any of these people were without sin, then they should go right ahead with the legal execution. And shockingly, nobody took him up on the offer. And these were MEN! If that same scenario played itself out today, those guys would have asked Jesus’ opinion AFTER they beat the woman to death. Weird. Predictable, unfortunately…but still weird. No idea, I’ve read someplace, can descend into manifestation without an imperfection. Big words. I like big words, myself. Especially being a black man. They’re not supposed to go together, I’m told. Makes about as much sense as a “brother” buying a lifetime supply of sunscreen. But still. I gotta be me. America itself, as a nation, is the grandest of social ideas. That much is stated in the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. I committed myself to remembering every word of it in school. It’s one of the few things, at any time and in any context, that was inherently and irrefutably true. Took a while for some of us black folk to be “granted” or “allowed” or “given” that privilege…but I shouldn’t quibble over details like that (I really liked the …”welfare…”part of it…again, hand-in-glove for your garden-variety Negro). When we talk about abortion, and refuse to talk about it in any way other than as a society (a society whose laws are, whether by design or intent, separate from our various religious beliefs), we aren’t assuming a moral high ground where we have the right to act as executioner (judges and juries are a messy formality most of the time…we like to get straight to the killing, and most of us would do it ourselves, save some taxpayer expense and have some fun all the while). That’s what we’d like to be able to do. Judge a book by its cover (or by whoever read it to us), assume we know what it means (even when we’re sure we know what it says), and promptly and without guilt burn the book page by blasphemous page. I cringe whenever I hear men get themselves tangled up in this mess and tacitly excuse themselves from any direct or indirect involvement of bearing or raising children in our society. A society whose economics are pressing against our “morality” more and more by the day. And that morality is always manifested in those most socially vulnerable. Women and children. I think it’s like this: if men are going to continue to be men (fornicate, inseminate and vacate), give teary-eyed public apologies if/and/or/when you catch them, and have that be the standard of behavior (because that falls in line with the whole “…women-can-shut-that-whole-thing-down…” mindset among some of us)… …leaving the consequences to the party we are ultimately going to hold most responsible is about the best we can do. Like I said, I don’t like abortions. Personal story: my mother told me many years ago that she considered aborting me. Rough time for her, and she wasn’t sure if she would be able to take care of me. Agonized over it a long time, she said. She eventually decided to not go through with it. It was her choice. Nobody around was going to assume the responsibility or the consequences. Everybody was prepared to crucify her. More than a few people did. She found a way to make it work. I’ll be eternally grateful. But again, left to face the TOTALITY of the consequences of whatever decision she would make ALONE, she did what she felt she could. And one way or another, that was the best thing that could have happened. But if we’re going to offer that children (unborn) deserve to live…than what sense does it make to call them burdens or someone else’s problem or say it’s not my responsibility when they’re here? We have long since (mistakenly, in my opinion) held that morality and affordability are similar sentiments. The higher the price tag, the more it must be worth. Or the cheaper the label, the less it should cost. Same difference. I would personally prefer that, if an abortion is decided upon, that it happen pretty quickly. The longer it takes, the less sense it makes. And nobody that takes the position that any child in a potentially “disadvantaged” position, that would say that “…that’s not my problem…” should have any damned thing to say about it. Because that’s what this is ultimately about anyway. Stupid poor people having stupid poor kids who are going to eat up a chunk of stuff from more deserving people if we all have to foot the bill for them being poor and stupid. Right? History’s going to judge us, all right. Just not down some of these narrow highways too many of us like to travel on….
[rant]I would donate more to Planned Parenthood but those ****ers keep asking for more and more money. It's really really really annoying. Same thing with the Texas Campaign for the Environment and Texas Clean Water Action. I donate quarterly and they call every couple of months wanting more special donations. **** just be happy i am donating and quit trying to get more and more out of me and calling nonstop![/rant]
My goal was to vilify abortion not Planned Parenthood; I know they do some other valuable stuff. It is what it is.
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=231676&page=3 Post #51 I'm talking about implications. If I stand against speeding laws then I have on my conscience the tragedies that occur and involve speeding. Saying that I choose not to speed myself in no way prevents others from speeding if it is legal to choose speeding. That is what you are doing with abortion. Most we don't legalize things that are heinous. How is your belief that a 24 week-old creation is just a fetus and not a baby? You regularly accuse me of re-making the vocabulary but let me point out that the term baby came before the term fetus... by a long shot.
Until there are better alternatives to the results of rape, or failed contraceptives for people that are ill-prepared to financially/emotionally support a child they didn't plan for, and who simply do not want to carry a child to term only to relinquish it shortly after.... not to mention adoption sometimes IS all it's cracked up to be... why not let people have that choice...? I'm sure it's plenty difficult for them without having belligerent meddlers like yourself vilifying their their choice... and in turn, vilifying them...
You clearly haven't seen enough or experienced enough of life.... There are far worse things than death.... like indiscriminate long-term suffering prior to death... it can afflict a child as well as an adult, you know...?
Well then we don't really have any issues. I'm extremely liberal/open/whatever on a lot of social issues, but later term abortions just turn my stomach. Any person considering abortion after there is a heartbeat should be forced to view the beating heart of the fetus in my opinion.
You might want to think hard on what is the most effective method to reduce abortion. Vilifying and criminalizing it isn't it. Shedding light onto it very clearly, early on (I support early education starting in middle school about it) would do wonder. Educate accurately on both the physical and mental side at best as you can, provide tools as much as you can and than let the woman/girl and their family decide as best as they can and support their decision as best as you can. I think that would lead to a more productive and supportive society with less abortions.
There's my confusion. I thought you were saying that in the thread we were participating in this week, you had cited something which proved my contentions wrong, which of course you hadn't. Most of us don't see abortion as "heinous," but rather an incredibly difficult choice faced by far too many women, largely as a result of the lack of real sex education and contraception options, particularly among young people. I don't have a thing on my conscience WRT abortion, it is a point of pride for me that I support a woman's right to decide what goes on in her own body. I would certainly rather work WITH pro-life individuals to help reduce the root cause of abortions (unplanned pregnancies), but instead I am forced to fight against them instead as a result of their absolute intransigence on this issue. Because I know how to read the dictionary. fe·tus ˈfētəs/ noun noun: fetus; plural noun: fetuses; noun: foetus; plural noun: foetuses 1. an unborn offspring of a mammal You don't "re-make" vocabulary, you just use the wrong words.
Agreed. It is my opinion that if every girl in America were taught the content of the book "Taking Charge of your Fertility" by the time they were 12 or 13, unplanned pregnancies would drop precipitously.
That would cover just about all of them then, as a heartbeat can be detected at 6 weeks (which is only 4 weeks after ovulation).
I thought so. You had brought up the old thread-derailment issue and I addressed it. My recollection was correct there as was my claim at the time that I was not responsible for the derailment that you charged. I followed the lead there. We focus on different things and while I acknowledge the damage that my position does to a woman's absolute right to choose, you and your side just de-humanize the baby upon which I focus on my concern. I'm all for any efforts to increase sex education and proper use of contraception but no matter how effective that proves in reducing unwanted pregnancies, it will still never be right to kill off the unwanted pregnancies-- except when the mother's health is in jeapordy. That would be her tough choice and, you know, some women would run that risk. They are that courageous. Do you really think I don't know how to read a dictionary? Why these juvenile taunts? So change "offspring" to "human" and a "fetus" is just an "unborn human." That's all I've ever said. However, you wish to take advantage of it's dependence on others and use that as a benchmark to legitimize its termination. No. I can play with the words as that is your preferred playground but I prefer a more objective analysis. Every conception results in a human being that is rapidly developing and with proper safety and nutrition will EVERYDAY become more and more human. Even upon birth, it cannot survive on its own for quite a while. And at the end stages of a long natural life, lots of these humans require the tender loving care and safe provision of others. It is a circle of life.
This is not even close to accurate. Many pregnancies are lost in the 1st trimester, even with the best safety and nutrition. Embryos with severely unbalanced chromosomes that have no chance at life can appear "normal" early on only to be lost later in the pregnancy.
