Google tells me them bayonets are useful for controlling prisoners and for poking bodies to make sure they're dead.
A bayonet (from French baïonnette) is a knife, sword, or spike-shaped weapon designed to fit on the end of the muzzle of a rifle, musket or similar firearm, allowing it to be used as a spear. From the 17th century to World War I, it was considered a primary weapon for infantry attacks.
If anyone here has recently been in the military, especially Army, did they get any training in using a rifle with a bayonet? I know when Krav Maga started they did teach using rifles with bayonets as hand to hand weapons, particularly the M16. The current M4 rifle used by infantries seems rather short to be used as a spear for hand to hand combat.
If I recall correctly the battle of Ia-Drang Valley was the last major battle where both sides used bayonet charges. I just saw that in 2004 British troops used bayonets against Shia militias in Iraq. https://www.wearethemighty.com/arti...r.&text=On Feb.,his platoon leaders went down. " 5. The British dismount their heavily-armed vehicles in Iraq to attack insurgents with their bayonets. A group of British soldiers from the Prince of Wales' Royal Regiment were ambushed by fighters from Mugtada Al-Sadr's forces May 14, 2004. The enemy was firing from an actual trench, so Company Sgt. Maj. David Falconer ordered his men to fix bayonets and enter the trenches. The British charged across open ground and dropped into the trenches. With bayonets and rifles, the men fought for the next four hours, killing about 30 enemy soldiers with no major casualties before a British tank arrived and ended the battle. Falconer and another soldier were awarded the British Military Cross."
Yes. But "bayonet charge" does not mean no fixed bayonets. There's a lot more hand-to-hand fighting than you realize, not by choice. If you want to read a great book about a time and a war that no one really knows much about: Damn fantastic book. It will make you want to strangle Douglas MacArthur and 2 of his lackeys, Almond and Willoughby.
Right on. If I want to get really impressed and then really angry, and then impressed, and then angry, I'll pick it up. Fascinating, brilliant and deeply flawed genius. 'Neptune's Inferno' is a great read. Ever been to the Nimitz Museum in Fredericksburg? Someday when we're allowed to go again, it's a great way to spend a day. That and, uh, walk a block, get a beer, walk back drinking beer, go back into museum. Repeat as necessary. https://www.pacificwarmuseum.org/
Here is a photo that I just took of a bayonet for a Chassepot which was the main French rifle of the Franco Prussian war, next to the M.7 bayonet that was the last bayonet that the Army used. With the bayonet attached the Chassepot which was a single shot rifle, it was about 6 and a half feet long - it was basically a pole arm. The first military rifles with magazines used to have magazine interrupters to prevent soldiers from cycling through the full magazine. They were concerned about soldiers using up all their ammo. They expected most of the fighting to occur like it was the 15th century. M4 with a bayonet is about 3 and a half feet long, including a fully extended shoulder stock. Maybe 2.5 feet from the pistol grip to the tip of the blade. As an actual weapon it seems really awkward and not terribly useful. I spoke with a British guy who did a bayonet charge in the first Gulf War and he said when they did it it was mostly about intimidating the Iraqi army, who promptly turned around and ran away when they saw them coming. British rifles since the 80s have been a bullpup design. I would say bayonets mostly exist as an echo of military conservatism at this point. As a practical weapon, maybe slightly advantageous in the initial charge, but up close and personal the knife by itself seems far less unwieldy. The British made a bayonet for the Sten SMG during WWII. I guarante you'd be better off taking the knife off and fighting hand to hand if you were trying to kill someone. It would be impossibly awkward and offer no advantage. It was like attacking someone with a pocket knife welded onto the end of a modernist wrought iron sculptural candlestick. It was basically a bayonet for a pistol, which was actually a thing for a while, too.
Yes there is a lot of hand to hand fighting and knives are still standard issue for troops and there is close quarters combat training, which involves hand to hand fighting. What I'm talking about is specifically bayonet charges with fixed bayonets as spears the same way it has been done for thousands of years.
Interesting info. I remember reading that the original AR-15 / M-16 precursor was designed without a bayonet attachment and a plastic stock. An army general when presented with it asked how could a soldier stab or club an opponent with it and the designer said with this rifle you won't need to. It's also fascinating to see how soldiers carry their rifles. In the old days they would carry them low around their hips like you would carry a spear if you needed to quickly charge someone. Now they carry them high up on their chest so they can quickly be brought to shoulder firing position. Granted the modern M4 is a lot lighter than the old rifles with wood stocks and long barrels so it is easy to carry up high.
This scene from Glory is one of my favorites. I'm wondering if the military still does any training bayonet training like this.
Marine infantry at least since 2012 issued bayonets with our rifles. We trained with them rather minimally though. We never attached them to our rifles. We just had them strapped to our plate carriers. Also another reason for the way we carry rifles today is due to the three point sling. During the old days they just had the tradional 2 pt slings that you just slung around your shoulder. With the three point sling you can carry a M4 pretty much hands free(not advised but you see people do it) in front of and get quick access to the ready position. They also have single point slings that pretty much act like a giant lanyard for a m4.
I probably did 2-3 days worth of total training with the bayonet and it was mainly basic thrusts and some disarment moves.
Interesting article on the MacArthur/Korean war situation for those who'd like a quick review of the madness... ______ Joe Collins, the army chief of staff, explained how Communist restraint had prevented an utter American debacle. Referring to the moment MacArthur had initially sought permission to bomb into China, Collins said, “When the first recommendations came in to bomb across the frontier, our troops were separated in Korea. The Tenth Corps was operating from the base at Hungnam, and our other forces were operating from bases at Pusan and Inchon. As soon as the Chinese attack began we were very much concerned about the fact that we would have to get that Tenth Corps out; and had we permitted the bombing north of the Yalu, we were dreadfully afraid that that might be the thing that would release the Russian planes, and additionally, have them give additional assistance to the Chinese, and might well have subjected the Tenth Corps to bombardment and possibly submarine attack during the perilous evacuation from Hungnam. Troops evacuating from a port of that character, in commercial ships, are terribly subject to air and underwater attack; and in my judgment, it would be a much too risky procedure.” Collins wasn’t quite so blunt as to say it, but his message was clear: Far from complaining about the limited nature of the war, MacArthur should have been grateful for it. The committee members were sobered, if not stunned, by the chiefs’ and Marshall’s testimony. Americans tended to believe that, having won World War II, the American military could dispatch China with one hand and whack Russia with the other. The secret testimony of Marshall and the chiefs made patent that America’s military had its hands full already. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...ns-why-general-macarthur-was-fired-180960622/
In the statue thread I listed this one as my favorite Statue in all of Latin America now they're using it for 7th grade level propaganda:
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/16/9137...hed-deploying-heat-ray-against-d-c-protesters https://apps.npr.org/documents/document.html?id=7211973-DeMarco-Response-to-Committee-QFRs
Here's the WaPo reporting... the utter horror of the trump administration can't be underestimated nor under reported... Federal officials stockpiled munitions, sought ‘heat ray’ device before clearing Lafayette Square, whistleblower says https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...0174e4-f788-11ea-89e3-4b9efa36dc64_story.html
