Because it is different for some reason. I don't know why it is. Some people handle it better than others, though the vast majority I think would perform similarly between the spots if given a sufficient enough number off innings. He is, but Giles has also outperformed him in what is still a solid sample size. And none of this changes the fact that was presented. Gregerson wasn't a closer before this season (and was even battling Neshek for the job). He had a good, but not great season.
You honestly don't believe there's a difference between a full-time 9th inning closer and an 8th inning setup man? You honestly think its just semantics? (can't remember where I read it, but there has been statistical analysis done on some of the differences... namely hitters have a more desperate/innate ability to make contact in the 9th, which makes a strikeout pitcher a more effective WOC in the 9th... then again, guys like Dotel were able to strike out far more in the 8th than the 9th, so there's more to it than just "stuff"). There's certainly guys who make a seamless transition (or are even better as closers).... Lidge, Rivera, Davis. There's also guys who just weren't as good in the 9th as they were when they were the set-up man.... Dotel, Clippard, GREGERSON. Curious use of the word "infinitely"... by that token, Giles has infinitely more experience than Billy Wagner did when he was taking over as closer for a division -winning playoff team. Also, 31 of Gregerson's 50 career saves came last season... again, their career experience thus far as a full-time closer is a lot *closer* than you're giving credit for.
Eh... probably not as much as you (all) do. Do you honestly believe Sipp feels less pressure to do his job because it's "only" the 7th inning? Fans are the primary drivers behind "clutch;" they're the ones that think an out in the 9th inning has more meaning/importance than an out in the 7th. But I think players - whose livelihoods are on the line each time they take the field - feel pressure no matter the situation. I think it's stuff, honestly. The situations change; the 9th inning - for a variety of reasons - *is* harder. But at the end of the day, good closers are, generally, very good pitchers. Gregerson, previous six seasons: 133 ERA+; 1.078 WHIP; 2.75 ERA Last year: 130 ERA+; .951 WHIP; 3.10 ERA And he wasn't "as good"? Really?... Are we maybe - as a fan - placing way too much value on 9th inning v. 8th inning? Because those numbers look remarkably similar. Dotel, btw, has a 1.57 ERA/.875 WHIP in what bbref calls, "saves." In "save-situations": 3.30 ERA/1.143 WHIP (302.2 IP); 3.33/1.187 (457.1) in "non-save" - you're doing the same thing to him, frankly. So, again - what you're arguing is that what you deem harder/more important/whatever is equally hard/important to the players? So Gregerson felt less pressure to succeed when he was just pitching the 8th inning?...
BTW, I *do* think players are very obviously wired differently; I mean, we all watched Matt Schaub crumble under the pressure. And I don't think they live in vacuums - they understand the 9th inning in where you make your money, etc. Some players do handle that better than others. But to argue Gregerson's non-9th inning appearances are somehow not relevant to his ability/experience, etc., when it comes to closing games is, I think, both an unfair invalidation of his career and fans over-inflating the importance of the 9th inning. He may not have been the closer, but to *him* - those outs in the 6th, 7th, 8th inning were every bit as important/pressure-packed as the outs he was asked to get last year in the 9th inning.
Not it all... 9th innings being "tougher" is a phenomenon that works both ways. Batters are actually more adept at making contact (for whatever reason) in the 9th vs. any other inning. All hitters (even traditionally bad ones) likely become a little more selective... maybe even desperate. Doesn't mean it happens every game, or with every hitter... but that has been a factor that has statistical merit. Never said they weren't.... just arguing in this case, who is the "better" pitcher. Giles has shown better "stuff" throughout the last two years... not a small sample size. The reason they got him was because the bullpen in general was lacking the strikeout... the one aspect that can help counteract/mitigate a contact-hitting 9th-inning approach. Never said Gregerson sucked... but his good season was not preventing the Astros from actively trying to acquire a closer at the deadline, and obviously didn't prevent them possibly over-paying for Giles to fill a specific need. They didn't have to go out and get a guy with closer experience... they could have done a repeat of 2015 and signed some more set-up men like they did with Neshek/Gregerson, leaving Luke as the for-sure closer. But they specifically targeted closers, and paid the price for them. I agree this was largely in part to mitigate the 7th-8th inning roles that regressed thanks to Neshek/Qualls/Harris all regressing as the season went on, but this front office does clearly value the strikeout/dominant closer (Remember, they did target Miller/Robertson last year first, and offered him them more money). Lets stop referring bbref, which lumps every hold/save-opportunity together as a "save situation"... and during Dotel's prime (2000-2003), he saved a number of games in the bad 2000 season when Wagner was injured, and then later on when he needed a day off. It wasn't till he was named full-time closer in 2004 that he started having some of the worst #'s of his career as a reliever to that point. Not sure what it is about the "title" that gets people... but it certainly does (and it works both ways, as I've shown before). Not it all... just that guys who have better stuff tend to do better, more consistently, in the 9th. Doesn't mean that Gregerson is bad... but if Giles has the better "stuff", then that's really all that should matter, no? Unless you think there's also a mental component to the 9th (which I do)... which would go against your semantics argument from earlier (and really doesn't hold weight since Giles has had more than a small stretch of being a full-time closer... and Gregerson's pennant-drive numbers weren't that stellar).
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/TeamCJCorrea">@TeamCJCorrea</a> after 1st spring training workout: "I don't come here to get ready. I come here ready."</p>— Mark Berman (@MarkBermanFox26) <a href="https://twitter.com/MarkBermanFox26/status/701445027172642817">February 21, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
My Correa mancrush keeps getting embiggened. Hey Now, as Nick mentioned earlier, all pitchers are weird creatures of habit and routine. They have been following a set routine of practice, warm up, and in-game use for their entire baseball lives. They like defined roles, there's a million quotes by players about this. We don't have to agree with it in theory, and I don't, but reality is a different thing.
One thing irritating about spring training is that I get all hopped up only to realize its still nearly a month and a half (April 4th) before they play a real game
Common sense prevails! <blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Brace yourselves, Astros fans.<br><br>Preston Tucker has first baseman mitts. And he’s going to take grounders at 1B. Read <a href="https://t.co/9ewJiPEqgh">https://t.co/9ewJiPEqgh</a></p>— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) <a href="https://twitter.com/EvanDrellich/status/701499820872060928">February 21, 2016</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Singleton is going to have to have a career spring in order to start the regular season at 1B. And a career April to hold on to it.
As it rains outside I'm watching my first actual ballgame of the year, thank you Longhorn Network! That's great! Makes perfect sense to try it out in ST. I wish Gattis was out there doing the same + at catcher, stupid hernia.
Kind of interesting how we've heard Tucker will absolutely not be playing 1B and Gattis wouldn't be catching, but we get to Spring and Tucker will play some 1B and Hinch said Gattis would likely be doing some catching (though his injury certainly makes that less likely now). It never made sense not to consider those moves.
And I never said that you said Gregerson sucked... What you DID say was that Gregerson (or, more accurately, "GREGERSON") wasn't "as good" in the 9th as he had been as a set-up man - which is wrong. 100% wrong. His numbers last year were a near carbon copy of his career numbers to that point. Was it being named closer... or a combination of age + miles? Dotel turned 30 in 2004 and had logged more IPs his first five seasons (499) than he did in his final 10 (415). And that doesn't include the 550 innings he pitched in the minors between '95-'99. Altogether, when Dotel took the field in '04, he had totaled 1,049 (MLB+ML) IP - compare that to his eventual successor: Lidge was 27 and had logged 314 (MLB+ML) innings prior to '04. I would argue 2004 wasn't as much a mental hurdle as it was a physical one; Dotel was beginning his decline. Not a coincidence (IMO) that he was a mediocre pitcher from 2004 on, regardless of role.
He was on track to be better... but he faded down the stretch when the entire bullpen imploded and they lost their division lead. Even if he is "as good" as a closer... the Astros just acquired somebody who was better (in regards to ERA and strikeouts), which was the original point. Agreed that 2004 marked the first year that Dotel was no longer an elite reliever... however, had the Astros known what Lidge was fully capable of in the closers role, they would/should have never made Dotel the closer. Dotel got the job largely due to previous experience and being the senior man... but its also no coincidence that the team took off after he was traded and the superior reliever became the closer (the trade could really be looked at as Dotel for Beltran+Lidge the closer + Wheeler... definitely a superior trade for the Astros). You're basically advocating for a similar scenario here... vouching for the older/more experienced pitcher vs. the younger one... except for the fact that the younger one in this case has more closer experience than Lidge/Wagner combined (when they took over), and has the one dynamic (the K skill) that has been shown to be critical to 9th inning success. Its a good problem to have... I just think if Gregerson can man-up and let the pitcher with better stuff take over the 9th, and he can continue to excel in the 8th as he has for most of his career, this bullpen will be stronger.
No "if" - he *was* as good, but go on... Perhaps you're having a Gregerson v. Giles discussion with yourself? This was, initially (from my perspective), a personnel-management discussion that devolved into a discussion of experience and then mental make-up, leading you to say: With regards to Gregerson, that is a 100% inaccurate statement. He was on pace to actually be better; ended up "as good." That's it. You were wrong. Just concede the point and move on. No big deal... What does ANY of this have to do with the idea that becoming a closer mentally derailed Dotel's career?... I'm actually not advocating or vouching for ANYONE; show me the post where I advocate/vouch. I was merely reiterating my opinion that Hinch, who showed magnificent touch managing his locker room last year, will likely not hand Giles the closer role; he'll make him earn it, which is the right way to manage the situation (IMO). I could be wrong... I couldn't honestly care less who pitches when, as long as they find the right combination to shut down the final 3 innings.
There are some people on this forum that just love debating semantics. I guess it's better than quoting yourself (to respond to yourself) in your posts and demanding we sign Justin Morneau and any available 30+ reliever that pitches for Puerto Rico's National Team.
