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Defensive Inside Presence 4 > Stretch 4
Tags:  2012, 2013, basketball, bosh, daryl morey, evolution, ginobili, houston rockets, modeling, nba, omer asik Tags
crossover is offline Old 02-01-2013, 10:42 PM   #1
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Serge Ibaka / Kendrick Perkins
Chris Bosh / Udonis Haslem
Pau Gasol / Andrew Bynum
Dirk Nowitski / Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett / Kendrick Perkins
Tim Duncan / Hussle Euro C's
Rasheed Wallace / Ben Wallace

I believe to be a consistently competitive ball club, the modeling of a team requires two inside defensive presences. They don't have to score (outside of catch the ball and dunk occasionally), but they have to be able to anchor the paint intelligently and reduce ppp within 10 feet. This follows from the evolution basketball theory of taking only inside and 3pt shots. It requires two guys to anchor the paint. Take a look at the most competitive ball clubs in the last 5 years and try to find an exception.

The Rockets have one in Omer Asik, and are missing a tough PF while having woeful interior help from the remaining wing players. My belief is Morey will go after a PF based on his premiere ability to reduce effective points in the paint.

From basketball-reference.com (2012-2013):

Defensive Rating
1. Tim Duncan-SAS 93.6
2. Roy Hibbert-IND 95.9
3. Larry Sanders-MIL 96.0
4. Joakim Noah-CHI 96.3
5. Paul George-IND 96.7
6. Andre Drummond-DET 96.8
7. Lamar Odom-LAC 97.9
8. Emeka Okafor-WAS 98.0
9. Eric Bledsoe-LAC 98.1
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 98.1
11. Manu Ginobili-SAS 98.5
12. Blake Griffin-LAC 98.6
13. Taj Gibson-CHI 98.9
14. David West-IND 98.9
15. Marc Gasol-MEM 98.9
16. Tiago Splitter-SAS 98.9
17. Tony Allen-MEM 99.0
18. Zach Randolph-MEM 99.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 99.3
20. Josh Smith-ATL 99.3

Defensive Win Shares
1. Joakim Noah-CHI 3.7
2. Paul George-IND 3.5
3. Tim Duncan-SAS 3.1
4. Roy Hibbert-IND 2.9
5. Marc Gasol-MEM 2.8
6. Blake Griffin-LAC 2.8
7. David West-IND 2.8
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.8
9. Zach Randolph-MEM 2.7
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 2.6
11. Josh Smith-ATL 2.6
12. Rudy Gay-MEM 2.5
13. Dwight Howard-LAL 2.4
14. Kevin Garnett-BOS 2.4
15. Mike Conley-MEM 2.4
16. LeBron James-MIA 2.4
17. Larry Sanders-MIL 2.3
18. Paul Pierce-BOS 2.3
19. Luol Deng-CHI 2.2
20. George Hill-IND 2.2

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Commodore is online now Old 02-01-2013, 10:49 PM   #2
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stretch on offense, inside presence on defense
 
Carl Herrera is offline Old 02-01-2013, 10:52 PM   #3
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crossover is offline Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
stretch on offense, inside presence on defense
Unfortunately, how many guys satisfy both? You're right that they're not mutually exclusive. My point is the quality that should be prioritized in searching for our new 4 is interior defense, not the ability to stretch the floor on offense.

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just a word is offline Old 02-01-2013, 10:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossover View Post
Serge Ibaka / Kendrick Perkins
Chris Bosh / Udonis Haslem
Pau Gasol / Andrew Bynum
Dirk Nowitski / Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett / Kendrick Perkins
Tim Duncan / Hussle Euro C's
Rasheed Wallace / Ben Wallace

I believe to be a consistently competitive ball club, the modeling of a team requires two inside defensive presences. They don't have to score (outside of catch the ball and dunk occasionally), but they have to be able to anchor the paint intelligently and reduce ppp within 10 feet. This follows from the evolution basketball theory of taking only inside and 3pt shots. It requires two guys to anchor the paint. Take a look at the most competitive ball clubs in the last 5 years and try to find an exception.

The Rockets have one in Omer Asik, and are missing a tough PF while having woeful interior help from the remaining wing players. My belief is Morey will go after a PF based on his premiere ability to reduce effective points in the paint.

From basketball-reference.com (2012-2013):

Defensive Rating
1. Tim Duncan-SAS 93.6
2. Roy Hibbert-IND 95.9
3. Larry Sanders-MIL 96.0
4. Joakim Noah-CHI 96.3
5. Paul George-IND 96.7
6. Andre Drummond-DET 96.8
7. Lamar Odom-LAC 97.9
8. Emeka Okafor-WAS 98.0
9. Eric Bledsoe-LAC 98.1
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 98.1
11. Manu Ginobili-SAS 98.5
12. Blake Griffin-LAC 98.6
13. Taj Gibson-CHI 98.9
14. David West-IND 98.9
15. Marc Gasol-MEM 98.9
16. Tiago Splitter-SAS 98.9
17. Tony Allen-MEM 99.0
18. Zach Randolph-MEM 99.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 99.3
20. Josh Smith-ATL 99.3

Defensive Win Shares
1. Joakim Noah-CHI 3.7
2. Paul George-IND 3.5
3. Tim Duncan-SAS 3.1
4. Roy Hibbert-IND 2.9
5. Marc Gasol-MEM 2.8
6. Blake Griffin-LAC 2.8
7. David West-IND 2.8
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.8
9. Zach Randolph-MEM 2.7
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 2.6
11. Josh Smith-ATL 2.6
12. Rudy Gay-MEM 2.5
13. Dwight Howard-LAL 2.4
14. Kevin Garnett-BOS 2.4
15. Mike Conley-MEM 2.4
16. LeBron James-MIA 2.4
17. Larry Sanders-MIL 2.3
18. Paul Pierce-BOS 2.3
19. Luol Deng-CHI 2.2
20. George Hill-IND 2.2
so... Josh Smith or ZBo then, that's the implication? since they're on both lists? Especially since they're more available...

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itachen is offline Old 02-01-2013, 10:58 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossover View Post
Serge Ibaka / Kendrick Perkins
Chris Bosh / Udonis Haslem
Pau Gasol / Andrew Bynum
Dirk Nowitski / Tyson Chandler
Kevin Garnett / Kendrick Perkins
Tim Duncan / Hussle Euro C's
Rasheed Wallace / Ben Wallace

I believe to be a consistently competitive ball club, the modeling of a team requires two inside defensive presences. They don't have to score (outside of catch the ball and dunk occasionally), but they have to be able to anchor the paint intelligently and reduce ppp within 10 feet. This follows from the evolution basketball theory of taking only inside and 3pt shots. It requires two guys to anchor the paint. Take a look at the most competitive ball clubs in the last 5 years and try to find an exception.

The Rockets have one in Omer Asik, and are missing a tough PF while having woeful interior help from the remaining wing players. My belief is Morey will go after a PF based on his premiere ability to reduce effective points in the paint.

From basketball-reference.com (2012-2013):

Defensive Rating
1. Tim Duncan-SAS 93.6
2. Roy Hibbert-IND 95.9
3. Larry Sanders-MIL 96.0
4. Joakim Noah-CHI 96.3
5. Paul George-IND 96.7
6. Andre Drummond-DET 96.8
7. Lamar Odom-LAC 97.9
8. Emeka Okafor-WAS 98.0
9. Eric Bledsoe-LAC 98.1
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 98.1
11. Manu Ginobili-SAS 98.5
12. Blake Griffin-LAC 98.6
13. Taj Gibson-CHI 98.9
14. David West-IND 98.9
15. Marc Gasol-MEM 98.9
16. Tiago Splitter-SAS 98.9
17. Tony Allen-MEM 99.0
18. Zach Randolph-MEM 99.2
19. Kevin Garnett-BOS 99.3
20. Josh Smith-ATL 99.3

Defensive Win Shares
1. Joakim Noah-CHI 3.7
2. Paul George-IND 3.5
3. Tim Duncan-SAS 3.1
4. Roy Hibbert-IND 2.9
5. Marc Gasol-MEM 2.8
6. Blake Griffin-LAC 2.8
7. David West-IND 2.8
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.8
9. Zach Randolph-MEM 2.7
10. Carlos Boozer-CHI 2.6
11. Josh Smith-ATL 2.6
12. Rudy Gay-MEM 2.5
13. Dwight Howard-LAL 2.4
14. Kevin Garnett-BOS 2.4
15. Mike Conley-MEM 2.4
16. LeBron James-MIA 2.4
17. Larry Sanders-MIL 2.3
18. Paul Pierce-BOS 2.3
19. Luol Deng-CHI 2.2
20. George Hill-IND 2.2
I disagree. Pau, Dirk, KG, TD, CB4, and now Serge are all offensive threats, and not all of them are strong defensive-suited. They all can shoot long to mid-range jumpers. It totally should be based on the make up of your team.

Instead, we should look at how teams are built around superstar SG's which fits our map. Kobe and Pau. DWade and Shaq. Clyde and Dream. Pierce/Allen/KG. Stockton/Malone. They were all built with strong offensive inside presences, and had fine team defense. Even today's Heat struggles a ton without Bosh.

Only on the contrary were MJ's Bulls, the Pistons.

IMO we need a star 4, and as long as he's not a liability on defense, it'll be alright to surround the front court with those who play good team D.

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Metropolis777 is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:00 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossover View Post
Unfortunately, how many guys satisfy both? You're right that they're not mutually exclusive. My point is the quality that should be prioritized in searching for our new 4 is interior defense, not the ability to stretch the floor on offense.
Every PF on that list made a living on the 20ft jumper and most had more range than that (Serge, Bosh, Wallace, KG).
 
kaitanuva is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:00 PM   #8
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As long as we get an upgrade over PPat and PPat replaces Morris forever, we're going to improve greatly.
 
meh is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:04 PM   #9
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Selectively choosing your sample doesn't exactly say anything. I can just as well give a bunch of other examples to disprove your point. For example, you use Gasol/Bynum to prove your point, even though Gasol/Howard has been a train wreck so far.

Anyway, we won a finals with Robert Horry(pre bulking up) at the PF position. Dallas had Dirk/Chandler. San Antonio almost always ended their games with Duncan and stretch 4, even if technically Duncan kept starting at PF. There are plenty of teams who have succeeded with PFs that don't adhere to the traditional, Otis Thorpe/Charles Oakley type of player.

In the end, it's about having more talent. And then have coaches try to fit a system around that talent.
 
mirdirir is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:27 PM   #10
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agreed. the thing houston tries to do when morey assemble the squad is; sharing the ball with good passers and high iq players (lin, beard, chandler) , finding the right shot, scoring on fast break, and then team aquired asik for lack of inside presence. to cover defensive liabilities of 1,2,3.

the system worked more than assumed but it is still work in grogress because everybody dribbles the ball end up in our paint somehow. our backcourt tries to steal the ball and get easy fast break points rather then defending. asik was aquired based on how he defended the paint in 15 minutes, but it didnt worked that much in here because chicago was a better defending team all around and asik is having X2 munites here. He would be fouled out even if they let him commit 10 fouls each game if he contest every opposition player attacking the rim.

thats why houston is not going into top5 in west. too soft on defense. chandler, delfino, morris, patterson... not 1 of them likes the contact or hustle for boards, ends up it all depends on asik. he tires out quickly boxing 2 or more guys and this is why he is in top 5 in rebounding.

the solution advice:

1) you can put patterson in 4 and teach him to be more aggressive. he is young and can learn about post defense and boxing out. but i dont think that he likes contact. he avoids it whenever possible.

2) Adjusting DMO is another option. I saw motiejunas in here (Istanbul) against my own team liked his game. ( 2 years ago btw) this guy likes to defend. good hands, good size, knocks down 3s when open. His ceiling is high i think and can be a very contributing player.

3) acquiring Ersan İlyasova is another good solution i guess. In Turkish national team, he plays with Omer in frontcourt, and as a Turkish guy, i know every aspect of his game. On defense; he likes contact and defending, hard to dribble around (has 4 steals in bucks game this night) and cleaning the boards. on offence; he likes the outside game, high iq player with good shot selection. knocks down open long range shots and tries for offensive rebound. I dont say it because i'm turkish i just think that he can very well adjust to rox game.

4) get a 4 player who has mid range shots and inside presence. serge ibaka or millsap kind of player.
 
mike_lu is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:34 PM   #11
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I think all-round guy (a PF version of Parsons) is probably best.
 
knote32 is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:40 PM   #12
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fogo18182028 is offline Old 02-01-2013, 11:43 PM   #13
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I think İlyasova fits us very well, what will it take to pry him from the Bucks?
 
Da Wink is online now Old 02-01-2013, 11:50 PM   #14
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if we have a shooting SF we would need a defensive and rebounding PF..if we have a stretch PF we would need a defense oriented SF
 
split41 is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:18 AM   #15
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You don't want a 4 that clogs the paint and makes it harder for the guards, even though you say they don't have to score (other than the occasional dunk), the player still needs to be accountable on the offensive end. Having a 4 with no range will possibly debilitate our offence. With our high pace style of play, a stretch four would make more of a difference than a defensive 4.

So atm stretch 4 > defensive 4, but that being said I most strongly agree with the sentiment below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by meh View Post
In the end, it's about having more talent. And then have coaches try to fit a system around that talent.
 
Dreamin is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:24 AM   #16
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Josh Smith.
 
kreia is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:32 AM   #17
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Guys, the wolves section on RealGM have been discussing ideas to get rid of Love..Is there still hope?
 
charles_zed is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:45 AM   #18
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Has no one noticed that Patterson has been creeping more into the paint? It hasn't affected Lin, Harden and Parsons game at all. Stretch-4s are overrated. They're valuable, but only if they can provide defensive presence as well i.e. Marcus Morris is a scrub.

Our offense hasn't been our problem, we get a lot of points. Our main problem is that when Asik sits down opponents get a lay-up line ready and whenever McHale decides to try and be too smart for his own good and run small we get killed on the boards.

If we can get a stud PF/C than great, but if we can't it would be nice just to pick up a back-up C to clog our paint.

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iconoclastic is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:55 AM   #19
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If Patrick Patterson keeps playing like the past few games, we have both. He's a keeper if he can average 15 pts 10 reb 1 blk with the great pick and roll and post defense that he provides.
 
prs325 is offline Old 02-02-2013, 12:58 AM   #20
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Lets get Larry Sanders and be done with it
 

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