They've never once offered them their own country with the resources needed to sustain itself. Palestinians would be fools to accept any of the offers so far.
Deckard, I apologize for attacking you earlier for your posts and being aggressive towards your comments. You have proven to be a stand up guy that can logically think through a set of situations and come to a conclusion without bias. I would love to have someone like you serve on my jury if I am ever on trial for something.
It can be difficult to understand where someone is coming from after reading a post of theirs, or two. But after a good while, you can get a much better understanding of the ideas presented by that person and their calculus of a particular dilemma, moral or otherwise. As someone who wouldn't be the best jury member, I agree with your sentiment.
International law. Israel hasn't offered anything but empty promises while they continue to expand their settlements.
Offered them a hell of a lot more than that. They offered Palestine 80% of Israel. what international law are u speaking of? <iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/O7ByJb7QQ9U" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>
Do you really have that little understanding of the situation there, or are you just keeping yourself blissfully ignorant so you don't have to condemn Israel of anything? Israel has control of the water. Israel has taken that from Palestinians and doesn't allow them to drill new wells. They give anyone who is Palestinian less water than they give to Israelis. They charge Palestinians a higher price for water than they do to Israelis. Palestinians would like separation from Israel but will need land stolen from them by Israel returned to them, and control of some of the water again in order to maintain themselves once they are separated.
What's frustrating is that these problems are solvable, but the status quo remains unchanged because there isn't enough political capital to change it. It's like watching a family member chainsmoking. They're in denial about their health, say it's just too hard to quit, and call you rude when you bring up the likely outcome of cancer and/or death.
Um...that was maybe true in the 90s. Edit: Oh wait...you mean the parition agreement prior to statehood...that's not really very relevant to peace talks. Any serious talk begins with 67 borders. They were very close in September 16, 2008. Abbas and Olmert have said multiple times that an agreement would have been made if they had three months to negotiate. Olmert makes it very clear why it failed and Bibi refuses to negotiate with Abbas (which he has and continues to offer) from the previous terms offered by Olmert. It's pretty telling when a lifelong Likudnik PM blames American ultra-right wingers for torpedoing his peace plan.
"offered Palestine 80% of Israel"... you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. 4th Geneva Convention, primarily Article 49: Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive. The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. There are now over 500,000 settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories, the majority of which are in the West Bank. Most in the West Bank are in Zone C, which contains most of the natural resources in that territory as well as the most fertile land. They have fragmented the West Bank so much to make a 2 state solution impossible. They have Jew only roads throughout the entire occupied territories. Palestinians are forced to go through 500 checkpoints or roadblocks where they are purposefully humiliated by the soldiers there.
So basically, you won't criticize Israel due to partisan concerns (I am not gonna jump on the progressives bash Israel... bandwagon)?
This was never formally offered and was retracted/rejected in the Woodhead Commission. Irrelevant as the law states occupied territory not occupied country.
I hate to break the news to you, but the British Mandate is no longer in power. There is a FB group asking the British to come back, which has a lot of fans, but that's about it. There's no reason to obfuscate the obvious. Israel is a legal state, it occupies land it won in a war from Egypt and Jordan. They don't want it back, Palestinians want it to form a state of their own, and it's been agreed to in principle by multiple Israeli PMs since the late 70s. We can be talking about why it hasn't happened like the grownups do, or how it has benefited from indefinitely keeping the population in the legal limbo of the Occupation, being neither a citizen or permitted to form a country, but instead we're subjected to copypasta from the hasbarists that have been torpedoing it for the last 40 years. Thanks for doing your part to sustain a conflict that should have been over when I was 3 years old. Obviously Sheldon's money was well spent.
it was offered (it only took two parties for this deal to be accepted). Palestine chose not to accept. Israel did. its not occupied territory. I didn't claim it was...... I claimed, Israel offered Palestine 80% of its land and it did. Palestine picked war instead.
they attacked the rest of Israel.... If Palestine just wanted their state they could have it. That is not their goal. This is why they attack civilians (how would that help Palestine get its own state?). Their goal is annihilation of the Jews.
The partition plan enacted by the Peel Commission wasn't between Israelis and Palestinians. Those political definitions didn't yet exist -- it partitioned Jews and Arabs under British rule who were killing both each other and the British soldiers charged with keeping the peace. And neither side was too happy with boundaries drawn. By 1949, they were Israelis (some Arab, mostly Jewish), and Palestinians under Jordanian and Egyptian rule. Palistinian nationalism as we know it today was, in infancy, just as keen to see the Egyptians and Jordanians as occupiers. There's a reason the PLO preexists the 67 War and Occupation by three years. The Peel Commission has about as much to do with modern war in diplomacy as British treaties from the French and Indian Wars do with the United States today, which isn't much.
As I posted earlier today, they almost had it, but the peace talks were torpedoed by the far right Israelis and American who became unhinged when the details of Olmert's peace plan were leaked to the press (notably leaving the West Bank, even though it included most of the major settler blocs with a territorial swap). The oft repeated propaganda bulletpoint that "if Palestinians laid down their arms there would be peace and if Israelis laid down their arms there would be no Israel" has no basis in truth: Will there be peace if Palestinians lay down their arms? The world expects millions of people in Gaza and the West Bank to happily and quietly live under occupation. While laying down arms is a positive step towards peace, it is not enough to end this conflict. In the past few weeks the pro-Israel pundits have been recycling an argument that runs as follows: This argument is based on two false assumptions about Palestinians. The first statement is based on the false assumption that the only impediment to peace is Palestinian violence, and the second is based on the assumption that the Palestinians’ main goal is to eradicate the Jews. The argument also rests on the false premise that Israelis are completely peaceful. Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish answered this argument in one of his poems. Many Palestinians share Mahmoud Darwish’s opinion. They don’t hate Jews. They live, work and maintain friendships with Jews and Israelis, and have had good and bad experiences. But the argument is a cheap scare tactic. It demonizes Palestinians and equates them with Nazis. This kind of fear is counterproductive, and fuels the conflict rather than offers constructive solutions. We – Marc and Aziz – have been working together for six years. Marc is Jewish, Aziz is Palestinian. Neither of us believes for a moment that one of us is waiting to kill the other. On a political level, this statement is false because Palestinians in the West Bank did, in fact, lay down their weapons. Moreover, they use their weapons to protect Israel. The Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) has recognized Israel. President Mahmoud Abbas in a recent interview with Al-Mayadeen News (Arabic) declared that the armed struggle is over and he is opposed to rockets, armed resistance and any kind of fighting against Israel. The Palestinian police are instructed to arrest anyone who plots an attack on Israel. They have been doing so for the last nine years, since Abbas took office. According to Israeli security officials, Abbas succeeded in stopping suicide bombings after taking office. Abbas has focused on building infrastructure for a Palestinian state. He has worked for a negotiated settlement with Israel. Both former President Shimon Peres and former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert called Abbas a true partner for peace. Abbas was elected by Palestinians on the agenda of creating a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders next to an Israeli state. But so far he has failed in his mission. So, the assumption that when Palestinians lay down their weapons, peace will prevail is far from the truth and ignores the underlying issues of the conflict and the occupation: territorial conflict, struggle over resources, and lack of political will. The vast majority of Palestinians supported the peace process and supported President Abbas’ UN bid for statehood on the 1967 borders, giving Israel 78 percent of the land Palestinians view as their homeland. The U.S has also lost hope in the peace process, with its envoy Martin Indyk calling it dead. Abbas finds himself in a tough place. How can he continue to justify the existence of the Palestinian Authority? Can the political structure in the West Bank survive people’s anger and frustration? Even as Gaza is being attacked, the PLO finds itself unable to offer any solutions, and is, in many ways, irrelevant. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank has no vision to offer the Palestinian people. The irony of Israel’s argument is that Hamas is using a similar concept. Hamas’ argument goes like this: The PLO’s recognition of Israel and renouncement of armed struggle has achieved nothing. The PLO has laid down its arms, and still there is no peace. Hamas argues that its violent 2012 confrontation with Israel was able to achieve more than PLO diplomacy and negotiations have achieved. The reason Hamas is able to gain support nowadays is Abbas’ failure to achieve peace with Israel through negotiations. Palestinians find themselves today between a rock and hard place. They know they have no chance of winning with armed struggle. They also know that negotiations are unlikely to lead to an agreement (at least not with the current Israeli government). Even non-violent initiatives like the BDS movement and weekly village protests against the West Bank wall are quickly accused of being anti-Semitic. It is absurd that Palestinians are expected to ask Israel, “What form of protest should we stage that you find acceptable and not anti-Semitic?” Many Palestinians feel that the world is blind to their grievances and aspirations for freedom. So, let’s set the record straight. Palestinians are not Nazis. Palestinians, like everyone else in the world, seek freedom, recognition of their national identity, and an end to the occupation. They long for peace and reconciliation, and are exhausted by this never-ending conflict and pain. It is ridiculous for the world to expect millions of people in Gaza and the West Bank to happily and quietly live under occupation. While laying down arms is a positive step towards peace, it is not enough to end this conflict. There must be a clear vision that ends the occupation and guarantees security and freedom for all. Marc Gopin is the James Laue Professor of World Religions, Diplomacy and Conflict Resolution at George Mason University in Washington D.C. He is also the co-founder of MEJDI Tours.
