I don't care either way the ruling goes, but what kind crap is this? Does the Supreme Court have nothing else better to do than decide who rides a golf cart or who doesn't? I can just see the future of sports being decided by the Supreme Court. This country is becoming a joke! ------------------ If Bill Gates had a dime for every time Windows crashed... Oh, Wait!! He Does!
I think they made the right decision. It comes down to whether walking was/is an essential part of the game. I'm no golfer, so I couldn't tell you for sure. But I know the senior players use carts, so my guess is no. Therefore, the PGA has to make an accommodation. Of course, the ruling won't help Martin, who isn't good enough to qualify for the PGA tour and whose legs are probably getting worse all the time. But it might help future disabled golfers, and maybe even players in other sports. Space Ghost, its not like the Supreme Court sought out this case in order to rule on it. It was brought to them and, in light of disagreement between two circuit courts, the supremes needed to clarify the law. ------------------ Bingbong was set up, led to an untimely death in the prime of his life for no other reason than pure malice. Things like that do not go unavenged. Sometimes it spills out onto the field of play.
What I find hilarious is that everyone is so worked up over changes in a sport. Who freakin' cares? Let 'em all ride carts. Let 'em do cartwheels. It's just a GAME! I do think it is pretty crazy the Supreme Court had to rule on it, but I can imagine that the Americans with Disabilities Act made this of particular import from a legal standpoint. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
On one hand, I thought it was a reasonable accomodation to let Martin use a cart for events. To me, it didn't seem like a big deal (I'm not a golfer, though, so what do I know about it?) On the other hand, it seems a little strange to me to have the Supreme Court tell a sports league what they can and can't have as far as rules. How long before some Deion Wannabe sues the NFL for the rules against Do-Rags or End Zones Dances? (It's not exactly the same since the Martin case was an ADA case rather than a freedom of expression case. But the door is now open to using the legal system to change sports league rules). In the end, though, I'm glad Casey is going to be able to continue to play. I think the PGA should've granted him a waiver from the get-go. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
The door has been open for athletes to use the legal system to fight sports rules. From the early 1900s when baseball players fought the reserve clause and the landmark Supreme Court decision in 1971 in Flood v. Kuhn that began the free agent era. ------------------
Makes no difference to me, golf isn't a sport anyway. This is like the supreme court ruling on Magic: The Gathering rules, who cares? ------------------ Liberals favor using artificial means to alter the normal to a state which facilitates and justifies how irresponsible they want to be
There's a difference between contract law and rulings that affect the very way the game is played. The Reserve Clause was a contract issue that isn't related to the way the game itself is played. Having the courts overturn an "on the field" rule is entirely different. It's a different door that has now been opened. This new ruling is not too far removed from the Supreme Court deciding that Field Goals in the NFL should be worth 4 points rather than 3. Ruling on how players are allocated to teams and their contract status, etc. is nowhere near the same. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited May 29, 2001).]
That's true, but there is really no comparison anywhere in sports to a golf cart being used in golf. In any other sport, athletic ability isn't regulated in such a way. A wheelchair-bound basketball player couldn't make it in the NBA because he simply could not compete on the level with other athletes in a very specific skill category. Martin simply cannot walk between holes. The skill of golf is predicated on hitting a little ball with a big metal stick. He can do that just fine. It's the walking part that gets him. If he couldn't hit the ball well enough to qualify, this wouldn't even have made it to court because that is a completely different issue. There is no other sport where a player's specific ability is not hindered but his performance, overall, because of the rules is. In other sports, he would be required to run, not because of the rules or because it was tradition, but because it is a necessary requirement of the game. To change that would fundamentally change the way the game is played. This does not fundamentally change the game of golf anymore than the allowance of graphite drivers did. I consider it an equipment modification like the addition of helmets to hockey and padding to football. It may actually make for lower golf scores if the standards are accepted for any golfer, which they should be, but I doubt it. Most likely, this is much ado about nothing. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
There is no other sport where a player's specific ability is not hindered but his performance, overall, because of the rules is. In other sports, he would be required to run, not because of the rules or because it was tradition, but because it is a necessary requirement of the game. Many golfers apparently disagree. They say walking / fatigue is a fundamental part of the game. DUBLIN, Ohio -- Now that Casey Martin has won the right to use a cart, some in the sport are worried golfers without disabilities might try to take advantage of the ruling. The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that a federal disability-bias law permits Martin, who has difficulty walking because of a congenital leg problem, to ride in a golf cart in PGA Tour events. In the decision, the majority opinion stated that walking was not a fundamental part of the sport. "I think we ought to take them all out and play golf," Jack Nicklaus said of the justices. "I think they'd change their minds. I promise you, it's fundamental." “ "I think it's going to create a big problem. We're in a real gray area now. Who's the governing body of the door that they opened? ” — Hal Sutton Hal Sutton, also a member of the tour's policy board, said many pros have bad backs and might now apply to use a cart. Sutton himself has had back problems. "In Casey's particular case, there's no doubt about his disability," Sutton said before a practice round for this week's Memorial Tournament. "This is not about Casey Martin. It's about the possibilities it opens up. The next person's disabilities -- it might not be as clear. "I'm happy for Casey Martin," Sutton said. "I'm disappointed that they didn't see that a golf cart is an added advantage. I think it's going to create a big problem. We're in a real gray area now. Who's the governing body of the door that they opened?" The decision came on a 7-2 Supreme Court vote. The majority agreed that the 1990 Americans with Disabilities Act bans discrimination against the disabled in public accommodations, including golf courses and entertainment sites. Tour player Notah Begay III, one of Martin's teammates at Stanford, said he was delighted with the decision. "What he (Martin) has had to deal with -- not knowing which direction the punches are coming from and who's pulling the strings, who has final say in what's going to happen -- having to sleep at night has probably been a real difficult thing, not to mention he's in writhing pain every time he goes to bed," Begay said. "It really complicates his life. I'm happy that he can get back to dealing with his work." Others weren't pleased. "Walking six miles a day six days a week is part of the deal," said another tour veteran, Steve Pate. "If you don't think we're a sport, then a part of my premise is gone. But I think we are. "In sports, everybody brings their own strengths and weaknesses to the game and whoever can overcome their weaknesses and maximize their strengths is going to do well. It's maybe not fair, but I just think it's the way it should be," Pate said. Jim Furyk, like Pate, said he sympathized with Martin's plight. "I'm happy he gets to go ahead and fulfill his dream," Furyk said. "I understood both sides of the story. I understood where the Tour was coming from and I understood Casey. If I was Casey, I would have done the exact same thing. I'm happy for him as a person." Frank Nobilo said there was no doubt that the game is harder when a player has to walk. "Anytime you get to ride, you gain an advantage, don't you? I think you do," Nobilo said. "It's the same reason they try to ban drugs in sports -- because it gives an advantage." Annika Sorenstam, the top money winner on the LPGA Tour, said players on the her tour haven't talked much about the Martin case. "I'm happy for Casey," Sorenstam said before a practice round of the U.S. Women's Open at Southern Pines, N.C. "He wants to play golf, he wants to compete and this gives him a chance to do it." Tour officials said they would "fully review and evaluate" the court's decision, and that Martin would continue to be provided with a cart at any event he entered, as he has been in the last three years. "The issues involved go well beyond considerations involving an individual player," the tour said. "Through the lawsuit ... the courts were asked to examine the issue of whether the tour should be forced to abandon its long-standing requirement that the rules of competition be applied equally to all competitors." Martha Walters, one of Martin's lawyers, said the decision shows that golf tournaments will be governed by the same rules as all other businesses. She called the ruling important "to all people in sports, high school kids, kids at all levels," because their disabilities would have to be considered. The United States Golf Association does not have to confront the Martin decision immediately, since Martin is not playing at the U.S. Open in Tulsa in two weeks. "It's a concern as to who is going to make the rules and set them, and then how much leeway there is," said Marty Parkes, USGA senior director of communication. "If somebody had entered sectional qualifying and then had sprained an ankle and then wanted to use a cart, I don't know what the answer is," Parkes said. "Those are the things that we need to read the opinion. Is that considered an injury or is that considered a temporary disability and they're given a golf cart?" ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
First off, Sutton is fat. That isn't a disability. Second, it is true that walking is part of it for some, but not necessarily for others. They created a seniors tour to help out older players who couldn't compete on the regular tour. That was a response to players getting old and not being able to compete. When the graphite driver came along, it added 50 to 100 yards to golf swings and yet it was allowed. The fact is that if enough people want a change, they'll get a change. In the latter two examples, elder players (no one is free from getting old) and equipment manufacturers used their considerable pull with the tour to get changes made to the game that fundamentally altered it. IMO, this is no different than those with the exception that the golfer is disabled and didn't have the power of tradition or money in his corner. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
I think this ruling defeats the purpose of sport. The guy isn't physically capable of playing. This is a professional league. It's much more than a game. It's a way to make a living and when somebody is given an unfair advantage, it takes a meal of my family's plate. This is big money people. If he finishes even one spot higher because of that cart it could mean thousands of dollars each week. That's not fair. If everybody can use the cart then fine, but I still think it defeats the whole concept of sport. Golf is a physical activity and he should be forced to endure that physical test. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
Funny, these golfers think that walking across a golf course is tiring, but they don't think a guy with a leg that is about to come off is fatigued or in pain. I wonder what these golfers would prefer, having two healthy legs an walking, or being able to ride a cart at the expense of a leg. I think the golfers who walk have an ADVANTAGE over Casey Martin. And he is able to play, he just isn't able to take the stress of walking up to a hole. ------------------ "I'm not here to protect my reputation, I'm here to make my reputation! Mama Barkley didn't raise no chumps!" - Charles Barkley [This message has been edited by RocksMillenium (edited May 29, 2001).]
so can everybody drive their golf cart around, or is it just that one dude? oh yeah did anyone watch the senior pga tour? it was a little to exciting for me=) ------------------ i am my own worst enemy [This message has been edited by DiSeAsEd MoNkEy (edited May 29, 2001).]
Golf is a physical activity and he should be forced to endure that physical test. And having a leg that is in constant pain and about to fall off ISN'T a physical test? These golfers only do it a certain amount of time a year, Casey Martin is forced to endure a physical test every day of his life. ------------------ "I'm not here to protect my reputation, I'm here to make my reputation! Mama Barkley didn't raise no chumps!" - Charles Barkley
And having a leg that is in constant pain and about to fall off ISN'T a physical test? These golfers only do it a certain amount of time a year, Casey Martin is forced to endure a physical test every day of his life. While that's true, if you consider walking a part of the sport, that's completely irrelevent to the discussion. Of course a disability is a bad thing. However, it would be like saying a disabled marathon runner should be able to compete in a wheelchair or ride a cart if you consider walking a fundamental part of golf The question is whether walking fundamentally affects how you play golf. They created a seniors tour to help out older players who couldn't compete on the regular tour. Jeff -- the difference here is that they created a separate "league" for senoirs. They aren't allowed to compete with the regular tour players if they use the seniors rules. In this case, the disabled player can use a cart, but compete against players not using a cart. I don't see the problem in this particular case given the circumstances, but I do think -- depending on how the ruling is interpreted -- it could open a whole host of other issues. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
Jeff, Walking 6 or 7 miles a day for four days in a row (and in the heat here in TX) is not the same as riding a cart. The cart saves energy for the golfer (exactly how many calories are burned moving 180 lbs 25 miles?) and also has a cooling effect on the golfer. If I were to play 4 rounds of golf against someone for $$$, I certainly would not walk when they were riding. I am interested to see what will happen when prostheses exceed the capabilities of what they are replacing (this will happen in our lifetimes). Football players will look like Transformers ------------------ Cohen
First, the comparison to running isn't a good one. Running IS the sport. It requires legs, not wheels. That is a key difference. As I said before, there is really NO good comparison in any other sport to this one because this is a rule that requires someone to WALK to his job, which is hitting a golf ball. Second, maybe the senior league is a bad comparison, but what about golf equipment? I still remember golfers saying that the titanium shaft or the graphite driver would ruin the game of golf. The titanium was compared to using an aluminum bat in major league baseball. The only difference here is that Martin didn't have the support of the multi-billion dollar sporting goods industry. Maybe he should get the golf cart companies to help him out. The point is the game survived and it will survive this. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
Cohen: I understand that it is an advantage, but, let's face it, if golfers are worried about a handicapped guy getting an advantage from riding a cart, they need to work on their game. Who's to say the cart will even provide Martin with enough energy to win a tournament or even qualify for the tour. He hasn't even done that and he CAN ride a cart in what basically amounts to golf's minor league. ------------------ The internet is about the free exchange and sale of other people's ideas. - Futurama
RocksMellinium, You need to stop feeling sorry for the guy and use that as your argument...I feel sorry for the guy, but rules are rules... WE ARE CHANGING THE RULES OF THE GAME THAT HAS BEEN IN TACT FOR OVER A CENTURY NOW... JUST BECAUSE OF ONE PERSON. Do you know how selfish and silly that sounds? ------------------
Cohen: I understand that it is an advantage, but, let's face it, if golfers are worried about a handicapped guy getting an advantage from riding a cart, they need to work on their game. That's just silly. You give one golfer an advantage and tell the others "oh, don't worry, just get better." ??? Who's to say the cart will even provide Martin with enough energy to win a tournament or even qualify for the tour. That's not relevent. Maybe it gives another golfer that opportunity. What about the non-disabled but very fat golfer who has an incredible swing but tires after 5 holes of walking. Should he get a cart? What about the guy on crutches for a week due to an ankle injury. Do we give him a cart? Basically, you're changing the entire rules of the sport to accomodate a disability. That's fine in this particular instance, but as a theory, it simply doesn't work. The example of running is relevent if you consider walking to be a significant component of golf, which many people do. What about a baseball player who can't run? Should he be able to be a Designated Hitter in a wheelchair? The primary component there is hitting, not running. This opens a whole slew of questions and simply saying it doesn't make much difference for Casey Martin really ignores the potential issues this case raises. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
