Will it ever end when people like this are calling shots? These groups won't be satisfied until there is no more Israel. That's the bottom line, I think. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/06/mideast/index.html Hamas ends cease-fire talks Friday, June 6, 2003 Posted: 7:28 AM EDT (1128 GMT) GAZA CITY (CNN) -- The Palestinian Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas on Friday stopped talks with Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas on a possible cease-fire with Israel. "We are cutting off all dialogue with the Palestinian Authority," said Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi, accusing it of trying to dictate the terms of Wednesday's peace summit in Aqaba, Jordan, to the group. Hamas, whose military wing has been responsible for many of the recent terror attacks against Israeli civilians as well as the Israeli military, has been labeled by the U.S. State Department as a terrorist organization. A two-page Hamas leaflet passed out in Gaza urged Palestinians not to accept the dictates of this week's summits in Egypt and Jordan, especially Abbas' calls for an end to the armed intifada, the uprising that began in September 2000. The strongly worded leaflet said the United States was trying to impose its position on the Palestinians and it called on Palestinians and the Arab world to oppose such dictates. At Wednesday's summit in Aqaba, U.S. President George W. Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Abbas agreed to support the U.S.-initiated Middle East road map to peace, which sets out procedures that would lead to two states -- Israel and Palestine -- living together in peace by 2005. Abbas called for an end to terrorism and Sharon pledged to remove "unauthorized outposts" from the West Bank and Gaza and do what it takes for the establishment of "a viable Palestinian state." On Thursday, an Israeli diplomat said Israel would begin dismantling the outposts in a few days. Speaking on CNN's "Q&A," the Israeli ambassador to the United States, Danny Ayalon, said: "We are taking concrete steps. [Israel] is going to dismantle them all. It's going to do it in a phased-out manner." He added that the larger question of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza that have been authorized by the Israeli government "is a political issue, which will be dealt with according to agreements and understandings" in a final status agreement. Arafat: Nothing 'tangible' yet Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, who has been sidelined from the peace process, said Sharon has offered nothing tangible to Palestinians. "What's the significance of removing a caravan from one location and then saying 'I have removed a settlement?' " U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, when asked about Arafat's role, said after the Aqaba summit that new leadership is necessary to move peace forward. "Yasser Arafat was not here today and Prime Minister Abbas was. And we have made it clear that we believe that transformed leadership is necessary," Powell said. "We recognize that President Arafat is still an elected president and he still has standing with the Palestine people. But we have said clearly since last year that we believe that his leadership has failed."
I guess they will have to send soldiers/tanks in to root these guys out once and for all. Carve out a Palestinian state put a fence between the shared borders and move forward. I am completely sick of hearing about the Israel/Palestinian conflict.
Well, with Abbas and Sharon both talking seriously about major concessions and peace, Hamas has probably realized that either it must derail the peace process or its days are numbered. The good part is that with Abbas committed to peace, we now have an opportunity to use the PA as an asset against these groups, and not a roadblock. As I have always said, the PA knows who these guys are and where they are hiding. With the Paleastinian Authority's help it shouldn't be too difficult to eliminate them, the PA just needs to sign on to the endeavor. Unless Abbas and/or Sharon backtrack, which will be more difficult than ever before at this point, Hamas is finished. Arafat is about the only person who can save them now. And he may very well try to.
The peace road map is a waste of time. Neither side is still not yet willing to make the concessions necessary for peace. Did anyone see that show on HBO of Oliver Stone covering the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? He interviewed one of the Israeli leaders and the Israeli leader basically admitted that Israel is not making enough concessions for peace. He said he knows what must be done for peace yet Israel is not willing to go that far. He said what seems like a hopeless situation of a never ending conflict could end shortly if Israel faced up to what they know they must do. He was a former leader of Israel...Perez I think. The thing we each must ask ourselves is if we were on the Palestinian side...what would we do? We have Israeli occupation in our backyards, we have never ending violence and incursions, we have checkpoints and lack of free movement to get around for work and the like, we have no future while this continues, we have no real military, etc. . While suicide bombings are horrible things, the worst has been brought out by Israel's actions. Hamas stated in this HBO interview with Oliver Stone that they don't want to suicide bomb and they actually try to talk the candidates for suicide bombing out of it. But, there are volunteers for this type of bombing left and right. If the candidate is going to do it, then Hamas helps them do it. All Hamas has stated they wanted is to go back to 1967 borders, dismantling of the settlements on their land, a right of return for the refugees, and their own secular state next to Israel. That is what he stated in the interview and anything less will not end the violence. I believe that while it is easy to point fingers at suicide bombings as unspeakable acts...these are the only things that really work against Israeli's superior military. It's okay for Israel to shoot tank shells and launch missiles to blow stuff up. They don't discriminate very well between civilians and militants themselves. They kill more civilians than the militants do. Suicide bombings are the only effective thing Palestinians have to combat Israeli terror. They are hard to stop because there are only a few people involved in the planning. Palestinians cannot afford such things as tanks to battle Israel with. This is a war and since when are there rules in war? Everyone is a target. Just because the US claims to try to limit civilian deaths in war doesn't mean many civilians still don't die by our bombs. Peace is all up to Israel. They are head strong people. Their so blinded by their own occupation, acts, and decisions that they actually think things like settlements and occupation are okay now. Their not okay and they never have been. You can't just justify all these things Israel does over Palestinian resistance and suicide bombings. Palestinians have every right to resist what Israel is doing. What would we do? We sure as hell wouldn't sit back and be rolled over continually. We have to stop militarily(and otherwise) supporting Israel. They know what they need to do. They know the right thing to do to solve this conflict. They have not taken any steps. Dismantling a few rogue settlements is not going to do it. We have to withdraw support and put pressure on Israel to make them do the right thing. As long as the US government continues to turn a blind eye and throw their full support behind Israel, this conflict will go on and on. This peace road map is not going to work. They can't even begin the damn thing. One summit doesn't mean anything. And, as this thread title implies, Hamas is not going to cease fire while Israel just does whatever it wants as far as incursions and continued occupation. Israel thinks its unacceptable what Palestinian militants are doing. In reality, Israel is doing everything that is unacceptable. They continue with occupation and settlement building while Palestinians resist. Yet, what do we expect the Palestinians to do? Nothing? BS. Hamas is nothing more than normal Palestinians. They have day jobs and do normal civilian thingss. However, they also support their own cause for their own state and to be on the fair end of the stick. Israel hasn't done a damn fair thing during any of this. Meanwhile, Bush supports whatever Israel does and Arabs continue to despise the US. Why can't our government really see what is going on? Everything cannot be "we understand Israel has a right to defend itself". BULLSH*T!!! The truth is Israel is trying to hold onto whatever they can with their military might for as long as they can...regardless of how unfair it may be. It will only end when they face up to the fact that what their doing is wrong.
Israel will never give up the major settlements that have developed into small cities, that is ridiculous to ask. If Israel would end the probing settlements--aka trailor parks that alone would be a major concession, they keep saying they will do at least that...we'll see.
There are some things that Israel cannot ever accept. Sharon has indicated a willingness to do the hard things that Israel must do to obtain peace - namely ending the occupation and dismantling settlements. That is certainly a breakthrough. If Both he and Abbas are serious and stick to their concessions, then peace is very possible this time around. Hamas and PIJ will be defeated if the PA and Israel can work together against them, and when they are defeated it will be much easier for Israelis to stomach everything that they must do to make it work. Once the terrorists are gone Israel will have no choice but to give in. There are only two major stumbling blocks that I foresee (assuming that both Abbas and Sharon stick to their agreements): 1) Yassir Arafat. He is not happy with being sidelined, and may instruct Fatah, Tanzim, and Al Aqsa to restart operations against Israel in an effort to destroy the peace process and regain power. He has never been interested in peace, only power. 2) Right of return. The Israelis cannot ever allow this to happen, as it would effectively end the state of Israel by turning over Israel's government to the Palestinians. This was a deal breaker in the Oslo process, and it would be a deal-breaker again. Abbas knows this, so if you see him demanding this then you will know that he is not serious about peace. On the other hand, if he doesn't demand it, then that will be a very strong indication that he truly is serious about peace...
Actually I think neither side should take things off the table so that they can be used as bargaining chips. Abbas, I am sure, knows that right of return will never happen and is unfeasible, but won't give it up right off the bat b/c later he can give it up in negotiations and say, i gave up the right of return issue, what can you give me? likewise, i have heard from many diplomats that most in the israeli gov't see that the settlements have to come down for the most part, but they aren't about to give it up so easily. they want to use it as a bargaining tool just like the right of return for palestinians. both sides know exactly what needs to happen, the question is whether they will ever actually have to balls to get there. i have actually had the opportunity to speak with the US special envoy to the middle east in the clinton administration who was there at the camp david negotiations with clinton and he has said the same thing.
800,000 Jews were ejected from Arab areas when Israel was created. In what is now Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc.., these people lost their homes, possessions, and money. Right of return would have to be a two way street, and that will never happen. During times of war, populations transfer and shift. This has always happened throughout history. I agree with Treeman- if Abbas even mentions "right of return", then we will know that his goal is not peace.
good point, maybe we should get you to the negotiating table to straighten all this out by COB today!
Its true , most Palestinians have jobs, in fact almost 25% work in Israel at nearly twice their normal wage. Hamas..they work in Israel too, but their wages are paid by arabs everywhere, their job is to kill unsuspecting civilians. Until arabs stop funding terrorism, even peace seeking Palestinians wont be able to stop Hamas.
No, the interview with the Hamas members they basically said they are Palestinian civilians with normal lives throughout the day who hold normal jobs and that you wouldn't know a Hamas member from a normal civilian because they are one in the same. He went on to say you may encounter a Palestinian civilian who is in Hamas and wouldn't even know it. I'm not saying all Palestinians are Hamas members but Palestinian civilians(mainly, young men) are the ones who make up Hamas. They say they don't want violence or to kill but, in their minds, they have no choice because Israeli soldiers are killing their people with their incursions and occupation. The perception of a Hamas member is a full time militant carrying an AK-47 wearing a hood is not true. During the day, these are Palestinian civilians who you cannot distinguish from other Palestinians. They socialize and go to the local places to drink tea and whatever.
Hamas also REGULARLY lies in its press releases, and has shown to have ZERO regard for the truth (remember the massacre in Jenin that never happened?). When Hamas is not busy blowing up children on their way to school, they work tirelessly to derail any peace initiative that will offer security for the State of Israel. They are the extremists who won't accept Israel's right to exist, remember. Frankly, I find it DISGUSTING that HBO and Oliver Stone have given Hamas a platform for their propaganda and lies. Too, I question the common sense of anyone who considers any Hamas statement at face value.
Actually, why don't you watch the f-ing interview before you post crap like this. All he was doing was giving each side a chance to speak their minds. Also, I didn't say I believed everything the Hamas people were saying. I am passing along what they said through my words. Last, are you saying you don't believe Palestinian men make up Hamas and/or you don't believe they can lead a double life as a civilian and a militant in order to avoid arousing suspicion and getting caught? Umm...alrighty then...you know all about being a Hamas member then. Right...
Actually, why don't you read what I f-ing wrote. I don't care what Hamas has to say. They are liars and murderers. Then why are you so defensive. Clearly, my comments don't apply to you. I didn't comment on that. I am sure that we could not pick out Hamas members in a crowd as you say. Of course, Hamas members have a way of getting blown up while driving, so it makes sense that they don't wear uniforms.
Point taken. But, Israeli soldiers have no f-ing problem murdering anyone in their way either. The Israelis have probably told their shares of lies as well. No, it was implied and with your tone...it's hard to determine what is going on in that head of yours. If it wasn't directed my way, then jolly f-ing good. I'm sure everyone with poor common sense is just clamouring to support Hamas statements and join the group. Actually, none of us can say what we would be doing if we were raised in that area regardless of how any of us may disagree with it from a far off place and perspective. If Hamas is all liars and murderers, then that doesn't speak well for most Palestinian men because they either are Hamas or support Hamas efforts either directly or indirectly in what they coin their resistance to Israeli occupation. Hmm...seems like we sort of agree here. Can that be? Nice f-ing talking to you. If it will move the peace process forward, then I'm all for extinction of Hamas cause they clearly serve noone but their own distorted interests. However, there is no or a fine line between Hamas and alot of Palestinians. The Palestinians are the ones who make Hamas what it is and those not directly involved support them and their efforts. That's what happens when Israel sh*ts on them...they get desperate and join up with desperate, extreme causes. How are any of the other militant groups any better than Hamas? If they are, then not by much. This is what occupation, intrusions, and murder can make one do. The truth gets lost in all of that. The only truth is there is a war going on and neither side has any set boundaries as far as what they will do. The supposed Jenin massacre, as I recall, was claimed to have happened by everyone and their grandmas... If a Palestinian civil war to root out all the extremists and militants is the only way, then their pretty much screwed over there.
