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StupidMoniker is offline Old 04-07-2012, 11:15 AM   #3121
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Originally Posted by wekko368 View Post
Do you really think Zimmerman exhausted every reasonable means to escape danger? At the very least, don't you think he should've been screaming for help? Isn't that a reasonable thing to do?

But as far as we know, the screams for help came from someone other than Zimmerman... And if those screams came from Martin, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman was no longer in danger and undermine his self-defense argument?
If you think great bodily harm is imminent (and if there was blood on the back of Zimmerman's head, that would be the case) then screaming for help is not a reasonable means to escape danger. The statute is talking about running away, which is not really possible with someone on top of you. Of course, that has nothing to do with my point, which was the Zimmerman following/chasing/insert your favorite synonym here Martin doesn't preclude him from claiming self-defense.

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wekko368 is offline Old 04-07-2012, 11:42 AM   #3122
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Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
If you think great bodily harm is imminent (and if there was blood on the back of Zimmerman's head, that would be the case)
Blood on the back of Zimmerman's head indicates great bodily harm is imminent? Out of curiosity, what do you think "great bodily harm" mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
then screaming for help is not a reasonable means to escape danger.
Actually, it is.....especially in a residential neighborhood.

And you didn't respond to my last question. As far as we know, the screams for help came from someone other than Zimmerman... And if those screams came from Martin, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman was no longer in danger and undermine his self-defense argument?
 
bigtexxx is offline Old 04-07-2012, 11:42 AM   #3123
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You can find this report on foxnews and many other outlets, but as of now, I can't find any mention of it on cnn.
CNN is very biased.

Just look how long they kept running the picture of Zimmerman's mug shot and "11 year old Hollister Trayvon"

You are wrong to use CNN as some objective standard.

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StupidMoniker is offline Old 04-07-2012, 11:54 AM   #3124
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Originally Posted by wekko368 View Post
Blood on the back of Zimmerman's head indicates great bodily harm is imminent? Out of curiosity, what do you think "great bodily harm" mean?
I have already posted about this.
Quote:
Actually, it is.....especially in a residential neighborhood.
No, it isn't. There is no reasonable expectation that simply yelling for help will stop your attacker, and if harm is imminent, waiting for help to arrive is not a reasonable option, even assuming help will arrive (notice that there were several reports of calls for help and NO ONE WENT TO HELP). If someone is beating you to the point where you fear death or great bodily harm is imminent, calling for help and waiting for a neighbor to call the police, and then for the police to arrive, is not a reasonable means of escape.
Quote:
And you didn't respond to my last question. As far as we know, the screams for help came from someone other than Zimmerman... And if those screams came from Martin, wouldn't that indicate that Zimmerman was no longer in danger and undermine his self-defense argument?
Assuming, arguendo, that it was Trayvon screaming, that does not prove that Zimmerman was no longer in danger. If Trayvon was attacking him, Zimmerman went for his gun, and Trayvon screamed but didn't stop attacking him, the screaming does not remove the danger of the attack. Any discussion of what happened during the actual altercation is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that pursuit does not eliminate the right of self-defense.

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wekko368 is offline Old 04-07-2012, 12:05 PM   #3125
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Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
I have already posted about this.
How about you post it again? B/c there's no way that the mere presence of blood on the back of Zimmerman's head indicates "great bodily harm".

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
No, it isn't. There is no reasonable expectation that simply yelling for help will stop your attacker, and if harm is imminent, waiting for help to arrive is not a reasonable option, even assuming help will arrive
They were in a residential neighborhood. Screams for help would've brought out the neighbors, and that would've ended the fight. You may not think it would've been effective, but screaming out for help is absolutely a reasonable means to escape danger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
(notice that there were several reports of calls for help and NO ONE WENT TO HELP).
That's b/c the calls for help were immediately followed by GUNSHOTS. No offense, but use some common sense....

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
If someone is beating you to the point where you fear death or great bodily harm is imminent, calling for help and waiting for a neighbor to call the police, and then for the police to arrive, is not a reasonable means of escape.
I think that if there were no gunshots, the neighbors themselves would've tried to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
Assuming, arguendo, that it was Trayvon screaming, that does not prove that Zimmerman was no longer in danger. If Trayvon was attacking him, Zimmerman went for his gun, and Trayvon screamed but didn't stop attacking him, the screaming does not remove the danger of the attack. Any discussion of what happened during the actual altercation is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that pursuit does not eliminate the right of self-defense.
So your theory is that Martin was screaming for help as he was attacking Zimmerman?
 
Nice Rollin is offline Old 04-07-2012, 12:19 PM   #3126
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bigtexxx has no credibility. preeeeeeeety sure he would have a completely different viewpoint if trayvon was the shooter and zimmerman was the one who was shot. i wish people would just ignore him. he hates the blacks. ignore him

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Nice Rollin is offline Old 04-07-2012, 12:21 PM   #3127
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Originally Posted by bigtexxx View Post
CNN is very biased.

Just look how long they kept running the picture of Zimmerman's mug shot and "11 year old Hollister Trayvon"

You are wrong to use CNN as some objective standard.
you're biased too, because you hate the blacks...

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bigtexxx is offline Old 04-07-2012, 01:06 PM   #3128
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bigtexxx has no credibility. preeeeeeeety sure he would have a completely different viewpoint if trayvon was the shooter and zimmerman was the one who was shot. i wish people would just ignore him. he hates the blacks. ignore him
What exactly is my viewpoint? Wanting more facts?

lol

you're just trying to hurl insults. I'll be the bigger man and not respond in kind.

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shipwreck is offline Old 04-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #3129
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Originally Posted by bigtexxx View Post
What exactly is my viewpoint? Wanting more facts?

lol

you're just trying to hurl insults. I'll be the bigger man and not respond in kind.
And what a big, big man you have been in here, defending truth and ensuring justice. My hero.

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bigtexxx is offline Old 04-07-2012, 01:15 PM   #3130
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And what a big, big man you have been in here, defending truth and ensuring justice. My hero.
Thanks

I have indeed been looking very, very smart as more information comes to light.

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shipwreck is offline Old 04-07-2012, 01:20 PM   #3131
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Originally Posted by bigtexxx View Post
Thanks

I have indeed been looking very, very smart as more information comes to light.
You look like a big racist baby.

Go ahead. Thump your chest big guy. It's all about you!

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StupidMoniker is offline Old 04-07-2012, 02:24 PM   #3132
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Originally Posted by wekko368 View Post
How about you post it again? B/c there's no way that the mere presence of blood on the back of Zimmerman's head indicates "great bodily harm".
The jist of it is that great bodily harm is determined on a case by case basis, but such injuries such as a broken nose, cuts requiring stitches, severe black eyes, and concussions have been held to be great bodily harm in the past (at least in CA). If Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head, it is not unreasonable that he feared a concussion, or cuts that required stitches. If Zimmerman was punched in the face, it is not unreasonable that he feared a broken nose.
Quote:
They were in a residential neighborhood. Screams for help would've brought out the neighbors, and that would've ended the fight. You may not think it would've been effective, but screaming out for help is absolutely a reasonable means to escape danger.
There are several reports that someone was heard screaming. No one came and broke up anything. It doesn't appear that screaming was an effective means of escape for whoever it was that was screaming.
Quote:
That's b/c the calls for help were immediately followed by GUNSHOTS. No offense, but use some common sense....

I think that if there were no gunshots, the neighbors themselves would've tried to help.
If he had not fired, who is to say that the calls for help would not have immediately been followed by Zimmerman's skull being cracked? The only one who can say with any reasonable certainty is Zimmerman. He has stated that he was in fear for his life. You are assuming that he had time to wait for people to come and help. There have been situations over and over again where people walk right past victims in plain sight, let alone just ignoring cries for help. It is called the bystander effect. I think you are severely overestimating the effectiveness of crying for help.
Quote:
So your theory is that Martin was screaming for help as he was attacking Zimmerman?
I have no theory. I was merely outlining a scenario in which Martin could be screaming and Zimmerman could be in danger at the same time.

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KingCheetah is offline Old 04-07-2012, 02:55 PM   #3133
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Have you idiots worked this out yet to your satisfaction yet?

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blink is offline Old 04-07-2012, 05:03 PM   #3134
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Cuts requiring stitches and broken noses are pretty easy to get without much effort: see Kobe Bryant. Neither of which warrants deadly force
 
wekko368 is offline Old 04-07-2012, 05:13 PM   #3135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
The jist of it is that great bodily harm is determined on a case by case basis, but such injuries such as a broken nose, cuts requiring stitches, severe black eyes, and concussions have been held to be great bodily harm in the past (at least in CA). If Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head, it is not unreasonable that he feared a concussion, or cuts that required stitches. If Zimmerman was punched in the face, it is not unreasonable that he feared a broken nose.
California is not Florida. Like I said in my previous response to you, using your logic, California terminology, and Florida law, if you commanded your chihuahua to attack me, I'd be within my rights to shoot you to death. Don't you think there's a disconnect somewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
There are several reports that someone was heard screaming. No one came and broke up anything. It doesn't appear that screaming was an effective means of escape for whoever it was that was screaming.
Like I said, those screams for help were followed by gunshots. Who in their right might goes to intervene when they hear gunshots? Use some common sense...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
If he had not fired, who is to say that the calls for help would not have immediately been followed by Zimmerman's skull being cracked? The only one who can say with any reasonable certainty is Zimmerman.
How can Zimmerman say what would happen with reasonable certainty? Can he see the future?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
He has stated that he was in fear for his life.
If he doesn't say that, then he has no basis for self-defense and would've been charged with murder. It's in his best interest to say that.

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Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
You are assuming that he had time to wait for people to come and help.
How long does it take for people to go outside their houses? 30 seconds? 20? No to mention the police were already on their way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
There have been situations over and over again where people walk right past victims in plain sight, let alone just ignoring cries for help. It is called the bystander effect. I think you are severely overestimating the effectiveness of crying for help.
First of all, these are Zimmerman's neighbors, and he's on the neighborhood watch. You don't think they would've intervened?

I'm just showing that Zimmerman didn't exhaust every reasonable means of escape. In fact, he skipped over the most basic one. But I guess you're never in any real danger when you bring a gun to a fistfight.
 
Granville is offline Old 04-07-2012, 05:45 PM   #3136
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Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
The jist of it is that great bodily harm is determined on a case by case basis, but such injuries such as a broken nose, cuts requiring stitches, severe black eyes, and concussions have been held to be great bodily harm in the past (at least in CA). If Zimmerman had blood on the back of his head, it is not unreasonable that he feared a concussion, or cuts that required stitches. If Zimmerman was punched in the face, it is not unreasonable that he feared a broken nose.

There are several reports that someone was heard screaming. No one came and broke up anything. It doesn't appear that screaming was an effective means of escape for whoever it was that was screaming.

If he had not fired, who is to say that the calls for help would not have immediately been followed by Zimmerman's skull being cracked? The only one who can say with any reasonable certainty is Zimmerman. He has stated that he was in fear for his life. You are assuming that he had time to wait for people to come and help. There have been situations over and over again where people walk right past victims in plain sight, let alone just ignoring cries for help. It is called the bystander effect. I think you are severely overestimating the effectiveness of crying for help.

I have no theory. I was merely outlining a scenario in which Martin could be screaming and Zimmerman could be in danger at the same time.
Very sensible responses
 
xcrunner51 is offline Old 04-07-2012, 05:56 PM   #3137
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Wow this thread is still going strong. The players are slightly different (cep for bigtex) but there's still point by point rebuttal going on at page 157. RIP Trayvon. May you find peace in the afterlife that has eluded many here after your death.
 
QdoubleA is offline Old 04-07-2012, 06:25 PM   #3138
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Originally Posted by bigtexxx View Post
Thanks

I have indeed been looking very, very smart as more information comes to light.
"Told you so look at me look at me I told you so look at me!". Grow up amigo.

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ChievousFTFace is online now Old 04-07-2012, 06:28 PM   #3139
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Originally Posted by bigtexxx View Post
Thanks

I have indeed been looking very, very smart as more information comes to light.
I wish I was as smart as you think you are.

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T.Mcgrady is offline Old 04-07-2012, 06:38 PM   #3140
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"Told you so look at me look at me I told you so look at me!". Grow up amigo.
HEY, settle down. He went to Rice.
 

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