Yao Ming Rejected for Taiwan Charity Visit, China Times Reports

Last time I checked, people of Hong Kong and Macao also have their own governments, and they are not subject to Chinese law either and PRC citizens have to obtain a visa to go to these two places, so by your standard, does this mean HK and Macao are not part of China either?

Honestly, you need to get better clues.

 

"just a war." I'm not sure I can respond to that. What does that mean? The biggest conflict in the history of the world was "just a war?" What Japan did to China was horrific, but on a smaller scale, so were the actions of that country against plenty of other peoples and countries fighting Japan because she attacked them. A huge percentage of American POWs never came home that were captured by Japan. If they weren't killed on the way to forced labor camps, they were worked to death. Same with a huge percentage of other Allied POWs.

"Japan didn't occupy any of American territory or killed dozens of millions of American civilians." Tell that to the Philippines, Wake and Guam. All were occupied by Japan. As for tens of millions of Americans not dying, it was because we finally mobilized, which FDR had be trying to do for years, in one fashion or another, before Pearl Harbor, and we built a military machine that kicked their ass. Not only that, but sent countless amounts of supplies and weapons to others fighting Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany. We sent huge amounts of supplies to the Soviet Union. China was much more difficult to supply, but we did what we could, delivering supplies under extremely difficult conditions.

As for Japan not apologizing to the rest of the world, not only China, for what she did during WWII, and not being accurate in her textbooks in Japan, it is well known to anyone that happens to study the history of the conflict. I've said several times on this board that Japan owes the world an apology and should teach the truth in her schools.

Many of you act like the rest of us live in a vacuum and are unaware of what happened back then, and are unaware of the mistakes Japan's government continues to make. It simply isn't true. Many here are aware of what happened. However, many here also find it beyond offensive to compare the Holocaust to what happened to China, or what happened to the Soviet Union, who lost more people than any other country in the conflict. Why on earth is that even necessary?

With all due respect, some of you could stand getting off your high horse and taking a course in cultural self-confidence.



D&D. Impeach Bush and Cheney.

 

Newplayer, oh please don't remind me of the trouble of being a Hong Kong citizen, everytime I visit mainland I have to carry two identification cards, one indentity card, one passport card. I have to cross a border which is time consuming. The only consolation is duty free goods at the border.

Anyway, to wrap it up, can we just agree that it's something r****ded to block out Yao Ming from visiting Taiwan? and that it's also irrelevant to bring in all the political mumbo jumbo when some Chinese, Korean and Southeast Asians are upset about Japan's Neo Fascism? Thanks everyone for discussion. Have a nice day.

 

I agree wholeheartedly deckard, I just hope that the misunderstanding on display here is born out of ignorance, caught up in internet pride, more so than truly nationalistic fervor, if not then we are in for trouble as a species.

 

If Israel had ever done anything coming within a light-year of the holocaust, Mao's activities, or the Rape of Nanking, then the Israelis should absolutely be forced to bring it up when decrying the holocaust, or rightfully be called hypocrits. Russians should absolutely denounce Stalin before complaining about Neo-Nazis, Stalin was probably the worst of all of them, and certainly on a level with the worst people of all time.

It was a generalization, just as there are Germans who deny the Holocaust, but people point to Germany's right stance toward it overall, there are individual Chinese that dislike Mao, but the country as a whole has built him a big shrine and millions visit it annually IIRC.

I wasn't speaking of the political stances countries take on recognizing Taiwan. China has made it clear that if you want to deal with them, don't recognize Taiwan, and China is much to big a world actor to cut oneself off from. I was speaking of taking a common sense look at the country. They have their own government that is elected by the people of Taiwan (the mainland doesn't get a vote) and is not subject to the authority of the PRC government. They have their own military which is not under the command of the PRC. They have their own flag. They have their own team in International sporting events. They have their own currency. They don't pay taxes to the PRC. Sure China has bullied people into not recognizing them officially, but they are without question an independent nation.

Hong Kong and Macao were LEASED from China by other countries and RETURNED to China when the lease expired. China ALLOWS them to have their own governments because they think it will be viewed better internationally and because they provide much more benefit to China as they are than they would if they were forced to bring themselves down to the Chinese average. I would say that they are more like Puerto Rico is to the US than fully independent nations (actually less independent than Puerto Rico even), but they are less a part of China than Beijing (as Puerto Rico is less a part of America than DC). You don't see the Honk Kong and Macao teams in the World Baseball Classic, but the Taiwan team kicked China's ass 12-3.

Taiwan, on the other hand, exists in DEFIANCE of China's wishes. The PRC would like nothing better than to have them integrated, but they know that right now the cost is too high. The Chinese can keep pretending that Taiwan is part of China, and they can keep buying/bullying the cooperation of the rest of the world in maintaining their delusions, but everyone knows it is all just for show. The US hasn't threated to intervene if China moves troops into Hunan.

 

Well, wish you guys luck on impeaching Bush. If not I'm afraid of people don't sleep too well knowing nationalistic warmongers in your country are controlling the majority of nukes in the world.

Seriously, get off the high horses first. The worthless stereotypes displayed here like associating being upset over Japan's Neo fascism with PRC's nationalistic propaganda is offensive to protestors in China, HK, Taiwan, Korea and southeast Asian countries. Saying the living victims and their countrymen should just move on and ignore insults despite continuous aggression from Japan's Neo Fascists is insensitive. Guess this is not a place to protest against Japan's Neo Fascism, because the absurdity is that the protestors need to get past the nationalism test arranged, cultural confidence test arranged, xenophobia test arranged, damage verification test arranged, as well as forgiveness test arranged... in order to be "qualified" to protest against the cold blooded sins of Japanese Imperialists and the worshipping of their Neo Fascist descendants.

Save me the trouble, I'd just protest on other places where sanity is preserved with no signs of Sino phobia.

 

Why Jews don't need to disown Israel before they condemn the Nazis? A crime is a crime. Doesn't matter how many people get killed. A murder is a murder. Your saying the Jews can condemn Nazis without disowning Israel is like saying it's OK for a single count murderer to condemn a serial murderer when it comes to Jews, which is pricisely where your double standard arise.

To them, Mao did good things as well bad things, like building a country with national defense that is free from endless foreign invasions before the establishment of PRC, while what Japanese did were Nth times worse than the bad things Mao did. Mao didn't burn people alive just for fun, Mao didn't rape their women in front of their husbands, Mao didn't order the Nanking massacre. You can criticize that their perception is wrong, but you have no right to call them hypocrits.

I'm afraid you don't realize you are just depicting "one country two systems" policy of China. Taiwan is currently under the regime of Republic of China. Brush up your history knowledge to see what Republic of China was found for. Or I can tell you now that it is established on China's soil to serve Chinese.

How about you photoshop some pictures in which Mr.Bush is getting Kung Fu from PRC's chairman, to support your baseless and biased claim?

 

Many? Who's that many? You and Sam? Offensive to whom? You or Jewish people? I've been on this board for a few years already, Rape of Nanking as a topic has been emerged at least 10 times, if not 20. However, I have yet to see ONE SINGLE poster with Jewish background has claimed it's offensive for Chinese to compare Nanking with Holocaust, NOT EVEN A SINGLE TIME. I wonder why, maybe the people suffered most know what those suffering really are. They will be mature and sensitive enough to understand it's very OFFENSIVE to tell people have no right to compare absolutely inhumane atrocities in the same period of time, done to different people by different people. You can disagree with such position that Nanking and Holocaust are comparable. How did that offend you, while it never offended any Jewish people? A French can disagree with a Spain comparing Madrid Train Bomb to 911. I don't think New Yorkers are offended by that comparison. Of course that French person can feel offended when someone is disagreeing with him all he wants, but do you think he has the right to act offended on behalf of New Yorkers?

Every single time, when Rape of Nanking is mentioned, certain posters would come out to call Chinese people to move on, instead of calling Japanese government to be honest with history and past crimes. Then, Chinese posters will ask those people whether they have the guts to tell Jewish people the same BS. Then, those "fair" posters will act very offended to tell the board, it's offensive even to compare 6 million deaths to 20 million; it's offensive to compare gas chamber to live biomedical lab, killing practice fields, beheading contests etc. Because they believe that 20 million death wasn't systematic enough. If that's not downplaying atrocities, I don't know what is.

Not one single Chinese has ever downplayed Holocaust, but you Sir and Sam, with a straight face, are telling Chinese posters are offending you, NOT JEWISH PEOPLE, but YOU, by comparing Rape of Nanking to Holocaust. Very enlightening.

 

Of course. When the policeman asks the criminal if the criminal wanted to kill someone, that doesn't make the policeman the cause of the criminal's murderous desires. Does the criminal get mad at the policeman after he confesses? Maybe, I guess. Does he have any legitimate reason to be mad? Not at all. The confession came from his own mouth.

You said:

• Actually, not any more, especially after we pushed them out of power and took their land and integrated them into our society, and also for the fact that we know they don't have the power to harm us again.
  
  
• I wouldn't go as far as genocide, but total destruction of their [the Japanese] military capability and their fascism right wing politicians would sound pretty good.
  

The answers were typed by your fingers, not mine. I am not misquoting you in any way, shape, form or condition. I am quoting you verbatim. verbatim. If you wish you hadn't said it, perhaps you should look into your own heart instead of blaming me for the words typed by your fingers. I am not somehow 'tricking' you by asking you a question.

Perhaps the problem is that you wish now you hadn't answered honestly?

I'm not sure where this 'logic' of yours that you are following comes from. I simply pointed out a fact without any advocated position. No logic present at all.

 

I haven't had time to read through this thread in awhile except skim the last two pages and its sad to see a lot of the same stuff brought u.

First off regarding the Rape of Nanking and the Japanese revisionists history. It always bothers me that people make this out to be a China vs. Japan issue when most of Asia is very upset about this, and also some US vets groups too. To downplay this issue by saying that the Chinese are hypocritical about Mao is a an insult to all those others who suffered terribly under the Japanese. Whatever the Chinese due shouldn't lesson the ethical responsibility that Japan has to live up to its history.

The Rape of Nanking though doesn't lessen the horror of the Holocaust. Both were terrible dark stains on the history of humanity. To compare the two by claiming a greater suffering to score rhetorical points strikes me as grotesque.

Getting back on topic:

Except that there is no single unifying governmental entity that makes Taiwan and the PRC under one country. While there might be a name without a single political entity that name is meaningless just as North and South Korea are both Korea but they are not one country. For practical purposes Taiwan is its own country and not comparable to HK or Macua which while having local autonomy have no say over foreign policy or military matters. While they have local elections Beijing has final say over their leadership and the PRC has also garrisoned troops there. If you are going to claim they are separate governments then they are governments under occupation of a foreign power.

Taiwan though has its own elected leaders and its own military. While it might have China in its official name it has no control over the PRC and vice versa so while for rhetorical purposes both sides might claim legitimacy to all of China neither side does in fact.

 

Huh? Forget about the last three posts of poster dream208, what had he posted prior to post #333 can be construed to you as the FACT that he wasn't raised in Taiwan?

Huh? Did he deny he himself is a Taiwanese?

Besides the fact you were confusing opinions (yours, wrong) with facts?

My question was what PRC had anything to do with the hatred of South Koreans toward Japanese, what is your answer supposed to mean?

 

Of course there is a double standard, or at least people judged by the same standard do not always end up with the same measurement. Charles Manson is bad, but he is not as bad as Hitler. Arafat is bad, but he is not as bad as Stalin. Israel has done things that are bad, but they don't approach the holocaust. Mao, on the other hand, has harmed the Chinese as much as Imperial Japan, at the very least in terms of number of dead. Yes, different people fall in different places on the good to evil continuum. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler are some of those way over on the evil side, while Israel's leaders are far away.

I have the right to call them anything I want to, just like everyone else. Mao is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions of Chinese, by varying methods some of them negligent, some intentional. In my opinion, Mao was just as bad as the Empire of Japan, and just as bad to the Chinese people. As for doing good things, Hitler and Stalin both turned their countries into superpowers. That doesn't excuse the bad things they did, nor does it largely result in their people celebrating them.

They can call it whatever they want. I say The PRC is actually operating under the one StupidMoniker two systems policy and I am in fact their sole legitimate sovereign. It turns out that doesn't mean squat. Chinese policy is not formed by my whims, just as the PRC does not determine Taiwanese policy.

I don't know what this means. What would bush getting Kung Fu from a person in a position that doesn't exist (did you mean General Secretary of the CCP, or maybe Premiere of PRC) prove? That China bullies other countries? I didn't mean they sent people to physically rough up heads of state. China demands that Taiwan is a part of China and that countries not recognize Taiwan as independent. It isn't like every country in the world looks at Taiwan and tries to apply some test to determine if they qualify as a nation. The PRC says they won't deal with you if you recognize Taiwan, and it is not in the economic interest of most countries not to deal with China.

 

Stupid, by your logic, a serial killer in the US is not as bad as the US government, as the former can in no way kill nearly as many people as the latter killed New Orleans Americans with gross negligence and incompetence.

Likewise, Israelis have killed millions of human beings through legalized abortions (one of your favorite debate topics). Therefore, Israelis are much worse evil doers to their own people than the Palestinian and Lebanese combined since the Arab terrorists can't even remotely achieve this goal.

 

"Not as bad" doesn't mean anything in judging crimes. A murder is murder, it wouldn't be a non murder because one is killed instead of 100. You are saying that a single count murderer can criticize serial murderers without being called hypocrite. That's what I find hypocritic about your statement.

No, you don't have the right to call a group of people anything you want to. Who do you think you are? Hitler?

Like you said, it's just your opinion. I think it's up to the countrymen to decide who is to be supported in domestic conflicts with damage done. Some American people celebrate the Yankees despite them killing thousands of the Southerners in civil wars, it's their right to judge. You can disagree if a judgement on their leader is right or wrong. That doesn't mean you can call them anything you want.

You system is just a whim, while One Country Two Systems is a reality. Now, Taiwanese has passports that say Republic of China on the cover, and the constitution of ROC would tell you that it's a regime of China.

It's about using common sense to know who owns a place, the status quo of some Taiwanese boycotting China's universally acknowledged right over Taiwan is not the proof of Taiwan's sovereignty. I can occupy your house, if you have one, shut you outside and do whatever I want inside, and that house still belong to you. The same goes for China and the Taiwan province.

Relax, it was just a joke.

 

Rocketsjudoka:

The Republic of China was found by Chinese revolutionists in 1911, it's a regime found on China's land. It was a regime established to serve the Chinese. It currently reside in Taiwan because Taiwan is China's land. Otherwise you'd be forced to call the occupation of the ROC regime of Taiwan a foreign invasion, which is obviously ridiculous.

 

Are you calling yourself as policeman and the Chinese as criminals? What a ****ing nerve you've got there! I think you are more like a mafia trying to project his brutal views onto someone who's seeking justice.

• 
  
  Yes I did, and that was in response to the following statement of yours:
  
  
  You brought up the Mongolians and how they killed millions of Chinese when they conquered China. I just gave you an answer that states that we don't hate them any more since we made sure that they cannot do that to us again. I've never said that the Chinese should've or did commit genocide against the Mongolians, and the matter of the fact is that the Chinese (Hans) never did anything to the Mongolians like what the Mongolians did to the Chinese.
  
  

Yes I did say that, and that was in response to the following statement of yours:

You are the one who implied that the Chinese would want to commit genocide to the Japanese because they are not convinced that the Japanese won't attack China again. All I said was that it was not necessary to commit genocide, and China just had to make sure the Japan does not have the weapons and political wills to start another war of aggression. What the hell is wrong with what I said?

Yes, I gave reasonable answers to your unreasonable accusations, all you've done so far is to quoting my answers and calling me an ass. You've given no logical objections to my points so far.

Perhaps you don't have a point to begin with. You get debated into a corner and now all you do is posting piles of rubbish to try to bury other people's arguments.

What the hell is the point of pointing out a fact without any advocated position? Are you here to argue or play a game of trivia? Panda said that he wanted an apology from the current Japanese emperor for Japan's war crimes in WW2, and you replied that the current Japanese emperor didn't do anything bad in WW2, were you not implying that current Japanese emperor shouldn't have to apologize? If not, why the hell did you bring that up?

 

The different between Mao and Imperial Japan is simple: Japan sent their army to China with the sole intention to murder the Chinese civilians and take China's land and resources; Mao and his communist comrades implemented unrealistic economical policies in the hope to bring better lives to the Chinese people. Do you see the difference?

 

Methinks a fisherman can learn about using baits in this thread.

 

Its a government in exile though with no legitimacy on the mainland of China. To claim that ROC represents all of China would be the same as saying that Cubans in Miami represent all of Cuba. For practical purposes it is a separate government and not a part of a single country of China. HK and Macau for practical purposes are part of the single entity of the PRC since ultimate political control is within one government. To claim that they are actually separate governments makes no sense unless you consider them under outside occupation which I don't think you want to.

The bottom line to argue that Taiwan and the PRC are one country with two systems makes no sense since they aren't united in one country. The ROC government doesn't recognize the PRC claim and the PRC doesn't recognize the ROC claim no matter what is in their names.

 

That's a ridiculous basis though for sovereignity. The US could blockade many smaller countries and can militarily invade them but that doesn't mean that those countries are under US soveriegnity.

The proof of sovereignity is what government has final say over the affairs of state. The PRC has no final say over the affairs of state of Taiwan and vice versa.