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[OFFICIAL] Bernie Sanders for President thread

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Os Trigonum, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    I like Bernie, but he's not really a Democrat. He has compromised to work with Democrats because it's a two-party system, and they've compromised to work with him because he owns his seat. But, he's not a company man. Why should anyone be surprised if the "establishment" doesn't want him to be the Democratic nominee when he's not even really a Democrat? I hope he takes it anyway, but I don't expect anyone with a fiduciary responsibility to the DNC to make it easy for him.
     
  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    What do you realistically see Bernie doing as president?

    Not calling you out but would like to know what you think he could accomplish.

    I like what Bernie represents and have no real issues with anything he wants but I don't see him being to accomplish anything because he would be to stubborn to build a consensus of even democrats and we know Republicans will fight him tooth and nail.

    He does not have much of a track record of getting anything done in the Senate as well but I don't really hold that against him.
     
  3. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Not sure what you mean by getting things done. He's sponsored or cosponsored 220 bills that have become law. I think he knows how to collaborate with others despite his ideological differences. As to what to get done -- most likely, the Senate will stay Republican and the House Democrat, so not a lot of legislation is going to get done regardless of who is president.
     
  4. LabMouse

    LabMouse Member

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    He should just retire, and stay at home for good. All things about free college, free medical treatment are just super stupid.
     
  5. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Ok I could way off about what he has accomplished I just remembered reading something that refutes that.

    But that does not answer my initial question are you just ok with a president that will not even try to build a consensus?

    Not only in congress but also as a nation.

    What I mean getting things done is like Obama and obamacare how does he get things done in a democratic house that don't line up with him?
     
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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  7. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    They're looking at his record in the Senate and ignoring his career in the House. Here's my source: https://www.congress.gov/member/bernard-sanders/S000033?searchResultViewType=expanded

    In any case, I suppose I just don't believe he's a guy that won't be willing to compromise as a president. He's been in Washington for decades and knows how the game is played. I don't have a lot of evidence to say he will or won't be able to build consensus. It's also not the paradigm by which I pick candidates. I'm looking for a candidate with high character and wisdom and a vision for the country I can get on board with. I think he has those things. There are still innumerable ways any candidate can fail, but I stick to the things I think are the most important attributes.
     
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  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Fair enough.
     
  9. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

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  10. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

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  11. Roxfreak724

    Roxfreak724 Member

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    1) Worked with McCain in the Senate to pass a $2 Billion expansion/reform of the VA. Watch this video of McCain "feeling the Bern" lol

    2) Wrote in legislation into the ACA that gave $11 billion to community health centers. He also fought like hell for a public option on behalf of Obama/Dems even though that effort failed.

    3) He is called the "roll call amendment king" which is a bit overblown in my opinion, but nevertheless he has used the senate procedural rules to his advantage by sneaking in pieces of legislation here and there. A big one is language in one bill that called for an audit of the federal reserve which allowed us to learn that the Fed spent $16 trillion in secret loans after the financial crisis.

    4) He passed a bipartisan bill in the senate just this year which for the first time in a long time finally invoked the war powers act in order to stop the war in Yemen. Unfortunately, Trump vetoed it.

    5) Watch this video of a former Republican congressman during the 2016 DNC convention, specifically talks about how much he enjoyed working with Bernie and often never even claimed credit/authorship of bills. Also said he would vote Bernie over Trump



    As one of the Politifact articles I linked to indicated, Bernie is by most accounts an average legislator in terms of number of accomplishments. So without compromising his core beliefs, he has been able to rack up small to significant wins here and there for years all the while not being officially a Democrat or Republican. And that's not even counting the likely number of bills passed that he didn't take credit for since he knew it would increase the probability of them passing if it was led by an establishment politician. Honestly, that is WAY more impressive to me than selling out and just passing as many bills as humanly possible like some kind of sociopath.
     
    #611 Roxfreak724, Dec 7, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  12. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Is that supposed to be impressive?

    How long has he been in the Senate?
     
  13. Roxfreak724

    Roxfreak724 Member

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    I mean if you talk to people who benefited from the health centers and the VA reform, ya they would tell you that it's impressive.

    I presented to you what I thought was a very strong case to assert that simply looking at the raw number of bills passed is not a good indicator of how effective a legislator Sanders has been. But instead of looking at my points, it seems that you can't get your head off of "Oh he's been in the senate for so long and how many bills has he passed". Even the Republican congressman (if you actually bothered to watch the video or read anything that I worked so hard to link to) said that Bernie often didn't make bid deal about authorship.

    Here's some more food for thought:

    1. Both Republicans and Democrats have worked together on many bills that have either been a) harmful to the US worker or b) served corporate interests. TPP, NAFTA, PNTR, Iraq War, welfare reform, the wall street bailout, NSA spying. Bernie voted AGAINST all of these bills, so naturally, they would not count towards his bills total. Supporting/Defending any of these positions in either party today is toxic, but Bernie is the one person who doesn't have to.

    2. Sort of a corollary to my first point: "working across the aisle" doesn't always mean you benefit the people. People who "work" with Republicans on everything usually 1) Do more harm than good over the long run and 2) Have no moral/ideological center by which they make decisions.

    3a) Political maneuvering is often more important than legislative maneuvering with regard to how a President will use public pressure to get wins. Look at how Bernie used the Stop BEZOS act (A cleverly named law that had no chance of passing in a full Republican legislature but created the media spectacle necessary to shame Amazon), where he capitalized on the existing unrest among Amazon workers which directly led to wage increases across Amazon and Disney for 400,000 workers to $15/hr.

    3b) There's also an older story back in the 90s how Bernie used worker unrest after GE's pension plan change was poised to screw over 1000s of older workers. Bernie facilitated GE workers organizing and ultimately worked with a Republican legislator to pass a law that would make it GE's pension "reform" illegal.

    3c) Both of those wins, along with the way that Bernie's 2016 campaign capitalized on different worker movements to completely shift the political discussion to the left in this country shows that Bernie understands politics and organizing a lot better than other candidates. A good counterexample is Warren, who took Trump's Pocohantas bait and then shot herself in the foot by hedging on M4All.
    .
    Anyways, considering that I am putting about 10x the effort into this conversation than you are, I bid you good day sir,
     
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  14. Buck Turgidson

    Buck Turgidson Mineshaft Enthusiast

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    This is largely Simplistic Bernie Bro Bullsh!t.
     
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  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    None of that anything to do with my original question.

    How will he get actual legislation through congress.

    All of that is well and good but a president has to do more than bring ideas,

    Democrats cannot do it alone so how does Berny actually do anything, which is my point,

    You Berny again guys again sound a lot Trump, you seem to just wan't a disruption candidate who will not work with the other side.
     
  16. DreamShook

    DreamShook Member

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  17. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Why?
     
  18. ThatBoyNick

    ThatBoyNick Member

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    Really good.
     
    Roxfreak724 likes this.
  19. Roxfreak724

    Roxfreak724 Member

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    The only way to get real progressive legislation passed is to use public pressure and the bully pulpit to effectively squeeze out votes from Congress. And if we can't do that, then we vote them out in future elections. We are not like Trump supporters, because we understand that helping Bernie win the presidency is simply step 1, which he himself has conceded would not be enough by itself to do much of anything significant.

    Not me, us. Those are the words we live by, we don't expect Bernie to be some kind of savior, the way Trump supporters expect that orange buffoon to be. And by way, whether or not Bernie gets elected it doesn't matter, we have to stay engaged politically no matter what otherwise we will lose the future of this country.

    And lastly, "the other side" you speak of more or less doesn't exist in Congress at the moment. The Dems and Republicans have been advancing mostly the corporate agenda for the last 40 years while voter turnout has on average significantly declined. Might I introduce you to the United States of Apathy, a country in which "Nobody" won a landslide victory with 445 electoral votes in 2016.

    Your view of politics is fairly static, and so I understand why you seem to struggle with the political theory driving the Sanders campaign. So yes, if Congress continues to operate the way it has over the past 40 years then Bernie will get very little done. If the people in Congress now are the same people by the time 2024 rolls around Bernie will get very little done. If big money and lobbyists continue to drive the legislative agenda then Bernie will get very little done. If the movement around Sanders fails to significantly increase voter turnout among young people and the poor during both general and midterm elections then Bernie will get very little done.

    However, we intend to slide the rug right out from beneath this political era and relaunch a modern 21st century progressive movement.

    That theory may or may not work-out, but the intention of the people volunteering and donating to Sanders is to flip the table, not just rearrange it. They will not simply elect Bernie and go away, but will keep fighting long after.

    You may dispute the plausibility of such a political theory with understandable skepticism, but the argument itself is not necessarily fallacious when understanding the history of this country in which every major transition has required some sort of mass movement of people.
     
  20. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Use Public pressure?

    How can he do that when he can't even get 20% of the democratic party to agree with him?

    That's my issue if you can't even rally the troops to get elected how can you rally the country?

    Sorry to break this to you but if you can't even get Berny or those types of candidates elected to congress how are you gonna slide the rug from under anybody or anything?

    The people that donated and volunteered for Trump where also trying to flip the table not just rearrange it.

    I agree major transition requires mass movement but Berny cannot move those numbers.
     
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