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[James Harden] Less turnover this season.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by 220living, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist
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    Not really Rocket science. Harden handles the ball less, he turns it over less (his usage rate must be down). Also Paul off the ball improves the offense, making turnovers less likely.

    But the issue has always been: what Harden can do in a possession is incredible. To have put the ball in the hands of someone who is a marginally better floor general than Harden would barely be worth it given Harden can score too. Harden is not elite off the ball, he is elite on the ball. It could not have been Rubio, for example - and I don't say that to irritate you, I just genuinely mean there are lots of PG's who are very good floor generals who would not have worked out. Ty Lawson is another example, although he was already on his way out of the league by then.

    It's not any PG that would have made this dynamic possible. Let's be real, it had to be someone Harden respects and with Paul it is actually worth having Harden off the ball - where he is improving. It's good to see Harden's turnovers down, but we may find that Harden being primary PG and Paul becoming more of an aggressive scorer delivers one of the most deadly offenses of all-time. Nice to have options.
     
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  2. riko

    riko Member

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    Every and I mean EVERY Jazz fan ive seen hates Rubio
     
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  3. basketballholic

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    Agree. It had to be Paul because Harden actually wanted him. If Harden doesn't want you, you're not coming. It doesn't matter how good you are. And if Harden does want you and you're available, then you're on the team. It doesn't matter how bad you are. (Witness: Bobby Brown)

    Don't agree that it couldn't have been other playmakers/distributors. It could have. It's simply a matter of wanting it to work. Harden had already demonstrated at OKC that he was great off the ball.

    Harden is a great player period. On or off the ball doesn't matter. We needed a multi-pronged attach though and have needed another playmaker from the time Harden slipped on the uniform.

    What happened here is Harden finally figured out last season (after 4 stubborn seasons of demanding the ball) that he needed to yield up the ball to another playmaker to be affable to free up his game. He picked the guy he wanted, recruited him all season, and then they got it done. And he picked a great one.

    But make no mistake, he could've had a great playmaking teammate long ago. And I'm not referring to Rubio (our Lawson) here. There were other deals. Harden nixed every deal for guys that were difference making playmakers. The only guy he handpicked (Lawson) was recovering alcoholic that couldn't get it together. But Harden felt he could control Lawson, which he did, and he could get the ball away from Lawson whenever he wanted to, which he did.

    Harden going for Paul is a significant upgrade in Hardens maturity. Because Harden had to accept he's not going to control every possession and he's not even going to be able to take the ball whenever he wants it. He's now playing with a guy that sees the game as well as if not better than him. He's playing with a guy that is a much more creative and efficient passer in pick and roll sets. He's playing with a guy that has a superior handle to him especially in traffic. And he's playing with a guy that has a stubborn streak to rival his own. Harden knows he can't push Paul around. Harden knew that from the start when he was recruiting Paul. That's a sign of maturity. Props to him.
     
    #23 basketballholic, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  4. basketballholic

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    Rubio is not going to be appreciated unless he's playing in a pnr system with 3 shooters and a center like Gobert. I personally think Quinn Snyder is missing the mark with the offense. The Jazz are fun to watch with all the passing and I understand the design is intentional to run clock. But I think he's way overcompensating for the loss of Haywood. And he's been way too stubborn playing Gobert and Favors together. That's a loser.

    I still maintain that you will see a different Rubio when they put the ball in his hands in a pick-and-roll system with three shooters around him.
     
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  5. basketballholic

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    For the first time in Hardens career his A/TO is over 2. And it's happening when he is no longer the primary distributor on the team and when he's scoring the most of his career. The evidence is in. Harden needed to be playing alongside a primary distributor after all.
     
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  6. flamingdts

    flamingdts Member

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    That's not how it works, that's not how any of this work.

    James Harden against the Pelicans had 17 assist to only 3 TOs, he was obviously the primary distributor in that game.

    Harden does not need to play alongside a primary distributor, he just needs to play along another star player who can take the pressure off of him. It just so happens that Chris Paul is not only a star player, but one of the best distributors to ever play the game.

    If Harden played next to Kevin Durant, you would likely see the exact same drop in TOs.
     
    #26 flamingdts, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  7. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Good. CP3 is doing work.
     
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  8. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    Better spacing (increase in better 3-point shooters). With guys wide open passing becomes simplified with less
    passes forced (bad passes).
     
  9. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Less TOs. And less Le$$
     
  10. kingkingston

    kingkingston Member

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    not really, last season a lot of his turnovers were from him losing the ball or doing offensive fouls and not actually from his passing to get team mates open. His turnover numbers were never a problem anyway because of how many passes he made, his turnover percentage was really low(lower than John Stockton's ever was)
     
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  11. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    Rockets 16/17 vs 17/18 (Chris Paul hasn’t played every game)

    http://stats.nba.com/teams/shots-closest-defender/?sort=FG3A_FREQUENCY&dir=1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&CloseDefDistRange=6+ Feet - Wide Open

    6+ feet (Wide Open)
    16/17: Freq FG 21.2% (4th), eFG% 58.8% (7th), Freq 2 pt FG 3.6% (30th), Freq 3 pt FG 17.5% (2nd)
    17/18: Freq FG 28.2% (3rd), eFG% 62.5% (3rd), Freq 2 pt FG 3.8% (30th), Freq 3 pt FG 24.4% (2nd)


    16/17: FG% 42.9% (19th), —————-, 2 pt FG% 64.6% (1st), 3 pt FG% 38.4 (14th)......again wide open shots
    17/18: FG% 44.8% (5th), ——————, 2 pt FG% 69.6% (1st), 3 pt FG% 41.0 (6th)........ “ “ “ “
     
    #31 ApacheWarrior, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
  12. basketballholic

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    Better spacing? Sorry, we traded Bev for Paul. Bev was a 40% three point shooter.

    The "better spacing" is Paul handling the rock and creating shots for others.
     
  13. basketballholic

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    The BULK of Harden's turnovers last season was bad passes and forcing at the rim.
     
  14. ApacheWarrior

    ApacheWarrior Member

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    You forget we replaced Harrell and Dekker for Luc MaM and Tucker.

    In a 9 or 10 man rotation 2 guys make a big difference.
     
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  15. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member
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    Yes, If you add Chris Paul to your roster you are much, much better.

    Genius.

    Ricky Rubio unfortunately, not so much. I'm pretty amazed that he is still so terrible at shooting. It really is quite astonishing that he can't learn to knock down 35% of his stand still threes, being as no one comes withing 5 feet of him, ever. At the end of the day, it is impossible to win a championship with Rubio as your starting PG. It's like winning a ring with Tony Allen or Andre Roberson starting. It simply cannot be done in this day and age, unless you have a sniper at C or something of that nature. Even then it would be tough.
     
  16. MVP4THREE

    MVP4THREE Member

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    [​IMG]

    less turnover, more work on step back three. well done, harden.
     
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  17. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Contributing Member

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    as "mediocre" as his shooting was last night (he prolly has some soreness on his legs from that collission), he was still able to minimize his assists to just 3 considering he had 8 assists
     
  18. basketballholic

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    You might see a drop in turnovers but you would also see a substantial drop in easy wide open assisted buckets made.

    This team needed a primary distributor, not another primary scorer. Paul is a better add than Durant would have been.
     
  19. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

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    Harden’s reduction in turnovers has to do with him shooting the ball more on step backs rather than trying to make heroic passes or dribble moves, I think. Not so much ceding the ball to Chris Paul.

    It’s not like he is relying more on teammates for his scoring production. Quite the opposite, actually.
     
  20. basketballholic

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    Actually........In the rotation we replaced Bev, Lou, and Dekker with Paul, Tucker, and Luc. That's not better spacing. It's better playmaking.
     

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