James Harden is as good a playmaker as Jeremy Lin.

WTF? Are you kidding?

 

That is not true. We had more than 25 games last year that can prove Lin is a good shooter.

Now he keeps the highest shooting records in NBA as a starter at their first 5 games.

 

Man, what are we gonna do with this kind of trolls?

 

Aren't those statistics skewed because of the usage of the players for the first 20 games or so of the season, i.e. Jeremy Lin's playmaking stats look artificially worse because he was told to stand at the 3 point line while Harden was told to play PG?

 

We have two style play....

One is hero ball, player gets a very good individual stats but team might lose. For example, Knick's team, melo's plays...

The other is the team ball, Lin try to bring it here. we as fan are not saying except Harden, Lin cannot play #1 option or could not shoot, (Lin did it in NY), but the team ball can make the W/L difference.

When ppl have the different concepts, our debate become "orange and apple compare".

 

Very well thought out post.

But isn't JLin more of a scoring point guard...??? In those first six great games he had last year _ he averaged 19 shots a game (2 more than what Harden is averaging this season). The game against the spurs when Harden was out, JLin took 21 shots. Pass first point guards don't take that many shots. And also JLin isn't a pass first point guard because his assist to turnover ratio isn't that great. Last year during his 26 game run he averaged 7.6 assist and 4.3 turnovers and that's horrible for a pass first point guard (any point guard for that matter) but its much better this year and that could be do to the fact Harden handles the ball a lot as well. The game logs show that JLin and the team play their best when he is scoring and are at least taking shot attempts. If you notice the games he was benched for Douglas he hardly shot the ball.

 

I agree. Everything else asides from the PnR Jeremy is pretty great at and very few can do what he does. He just needs to work on finding open lanes for the roller and using the right pass for the right situation. Right now he either has to jump and pass it or throw a pass high thats not usually the best for guys like Asik

 

Sixth Man of the Season award belongs to Jamal Crawford so far.

 

Harden is a "playmaker" because you have to respect his jump shot and his uncanny ability to get to the basket. You have to have 2 defenders eying Harden. Lin, although he is improving his jumper, is a playmaker reading defenses and running set plays. Plus our "playmaking" has a lot to do with both players getting so many steals and fast break points.

I'm impressed with Lin's defense thus far. He's not getting steals with Chris Paul type sneakiness or quickness. He's seeing plays develop and putting himself in the right position. Obviously he's studying film and recognizing patterns, like Battier. Just wait til it happens on the offensive end. Rajon Rondo light? Lin's december statistics look very similar to Rondo's second season. And he was playing with 3 veteran HOFers.

 

Oh i was just checking How man LOFS would agree.

 

Not sure how this happened, but a lot of you guys have changed the definition of what a playmaker is. A playmaker is the guy on offense that makes his teammates better primarily through passing the ball. Scoring for themselves is secondary to making things happen by passing.

 

Actually he shot 32 percent from beyond the arch last year and shooting 27 percent this year.

He's a very good score driving to the basket but his outside game is still limited...

 

but lin doesnt have the range that harden has

 

And where did you find that definition of a playmaker...???

Or you saying Jordan wasn't a playmaker and was a score first player... Did he not make his teammates better...???

 

There's a difference between making your teammates better and making your team better (ie. winning).

 

Even with last year that number and many TO's, the bottom line was without Melo and Amare on tKNICKS team, Lin made his teammate like superstars and the team win games.

 

Why are people so keen on comparing both harden and Lin when they are supposedly playing 2 diff. Positions....Lin definitely is the better of the two in terms of playmaking...Lin's first instinct is to create plays for his team mates coz that's his job...Harden on the other hand doesn't create plays that often...what he is doing is just dumping the ball to any of his open team mates when the defenses of the other team collapses on him...that is not playmaking but a common sense....

 

I guess I'm in the minority, because I always viewed a playmaker as simply the guy you rely on to make plays. It might be a great one-on-one move, or it might be a great pass. Maybe its a "hockey assist" type pass. Simply a player who's able to create good shots for his team (not just his teammates) through his individual skill with the ball and mastery of his team's offense. So, by my perspective, Michael Jordan was a greater playmaker than John Stockton.

Its just a terminology disagreement, though. Most seem to view playmaker as a synonymous with "point guard". So, in light of that, if we want to quantify how much of a "playmaker" a player appears to be, we might use a formula like this:

EstimatedPosition = 4.56 + 0.17*2FG - 0.07*2FGA + 0.04*3FG - 0.22*3FGA - 0.12*FTM + 0.11*FTA - 0.34*AST - 0.22*STL - 0.02*TOV
PlaymakerRtg = 10 - 2 * EstimatedPosition

All I did is took the last 3 seasons or so and regressed every player's box score stats (well, the ones that seemed relevant, per 36 minutes) onto their position (1 for PG, 2 for SG, etc.). That gave me a formula, where the smaller the rating the more like a "point guard" (or "playmaker") that player is. If I double that number and subtract it from 10, I can get a rating that's approximately on a 0-10 scale. Of course, its not so much a performance rating as a rating of how much a player plays like a point guard.

Here are the results for our players this season:

Player            MP       2P      2A      3P     3PA    FT    FTA     AST    STL    TOV     PLM_RTG
Jeremy Lin        1014     4.2     8.5     0.9    3.1    2.3   2.8     7      2      3.2     7.60
Carlos Delfino    550      1.6     3.6     3.2    8.8    0.5   0.7     3.4    1.2    1.8     7.40
Toney Douglas     614      2.6     7.1     2.6    6.3    2.4   2.6     3.6    1.8    2.5     6.91
James Harden      1144     5.3     11.1    1.9    5.1    8.4   9.7     4.9    1.8    3.3     6.78
Chandler Parsons  1099     3.6     6.9     1.9    5.2    1.5   2.1     3.6    1.3    1.9     5.76
Marcus Morris     691      3.4     6.5     2.1    5.4    1.8   2.7     1.5    0.8    1.4     4.11
Patrick Patterson 650      5.9     11.4    0.9    2.6    1.4   1.8     1.8    0.6    1.6     2.99
Omer Asik         946      4.7     9.1     0      0      2.9   5.2     1.2    0.8    2.9     1.31
Greg Smith        371      6.5     9.9     0      0.1    3.8   5.1     0.9    0.6    1       0.72

And who are the top playmakers (i.e. play the most "point guard"-like) in the league?

     Player            PS    Min     2M     2A       3M    3A      FTM    FTA     AS      ST     TO      PLM_RTG
1    paul,chris        PG    1018    5.0    9.5      1.2   3.5     4.3    4.8     10.3    3.0    2.3     10.3
2    calderon,jose     PG    887     2.6    5.8      2.1   4.8     1.6    1.8     9.6     0.9    2.4     9.7
3    tinsley,jamaal    PG    504     1.0    2.9      1.3   3.8     0.6    0.7     9.1     1.7    3.6     9.6
4    rondo,rajon       PG    978     4.9    9.2      0.4   1.5     1.5    2.4     11.1    1.9    3.5     9.4
5    westbrook,russel  PG    1089    6.0    14.3     1.4   4.0     5.2    6.5     8.6     2.1    3.3     9.1
6    ginobili,manu     SG    701     3.4    6.8      2.4   6.5     4.2    5.0     7.0     2.1    3.1     9.0
7    vasquez,greivis   SG    1023    4.5    10.2     1.1   3.1     1.8    2.1     9.3     0.7    3.7     8.7
8    prigioni,pablo    PG    387     1.9    3.4      1.4   4.0     0.8    0.9     7.4     2.6    3.1     8.7
9    nelson,jameer     PG    750     3.5    7.5      1.7   5.2     1.6    1.7     7.2     1.3    2.9     8.5
10   augustin,d.j.     PG    354     1.3    4.2      1.5   5.9     2.4    3.3     6.4     1.5    2.4     8.5
11   williams,deron    PG    1093    3.9    8.4      1.6   5.3     3.7    4.5     7.4     1.0    2.8     8.4
12   lowry,kyle        PG    547     4.0    8.6      1.8   5.3     5.3    6.3     7.0     1.8    2.8     8.4
13   curry,stephen     PG    1176    3.8    9.0      2.8   6.3     3.0    3.4     6.2     1.5    2.9     8.4
14   jones,dominique   SG    309     3.8    10.5     0.1   1.0     3.5    5.4     9.2     1.6    4.2     8.2
15   williams,mo       PG    754     4.2    8.8      1.5   4.1     1.9    2.1     7.6     1.1    3.1     8.1
16   price,a.j.        PG    470     2.1    5.3      2.0   5.8     1.0    1.1     6.4     0.8    1.9     8.1
17   dragic,goran      PG    962     4.0    8.0      1.6   4.5     3.3    4.6     7.3     1.8    2.5     8.1
18   conley,mike       PG    921     3.3    7.7      1.5   3.8     2.8    3.4     6.6     2.6    2.9     8.1
19   robinson,nate     PG    617     4.6    10.4     2.2   5.9     2.9    3.5     6.1     1.5    2.8     8.0
20   holiday,jrue      PG    1037    6.0    12.6     1.0   2.8     2.5    3.3     8.3     1.2    3.5     7.9